Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[Mandrake]

Listening on the way to work today I think Nissan have mis-diagnosed the source of the creaking noise, as I'm almost certain it's coming from the right hand side... I can't be sure until the weekend when I can get the car up on ramps so I can lie underneath with the undertray off while someone turns the steering.

The lower left ball joint is definitely faulty as the walk around video they sent definitely shows visible play on the lower left arm when moved by hand and there is an obvious clicking/clunking when he pulls on the arm, so it does seem pretty bad, (and that is the ball joint I had to fit an aftermarket cover to...) however I think they've seized on that problem and assumed it's the source of the creaking noise without investigating any further.

What doesn't ring true to me apart from the fact that sitting centrally in the car the noise seems to come from the front right, is that if a ball joint had that much play, why would it creak so badly even if it was dry ? Wouldn't a loose ball joint just rattle rather than squeak when turning the steering ? Wouldn't a ball joint have to be tight to creak when it's dry or has water in it ?

Is it possible the front right ball joint is the one making the noise ? Maybe I've damaged both ball joints or boots when I did the gearbox job and water has got into them, one has play and the other is just squeaky now ? I did drive through some relatively deep water about a month ago...

I've recorded the sound of the creaking in the following video. This was done with the car parked on smooth concrete as I slowly turned the steering from left to right. (It doesn't make a noise going from right to left most of the time)



The way I see it the noise can only be one of the following items:

1) Lower balljoint(s)
2) Track rod end ball joint ?
3) Strut top bearings
4) Steering rack ? (unlikely ?)

Can anyone tell from the noise whether it could be a strut top bearing or whether it is more likely to be a ball joint ? I've never had a failed strut top bearing before so I don't know what one would sound like. When I turn the wheel smoothly and slowly it's a continuous creaking, which suggests a dry seized ball joint or ball joint with water in it to me...?

When I did the gearbox I did not touch or disconnect the track rod end ball joints, however I did disconnect the lower ball joints from the hub so damage to the ball joints or boots is certainly possible.

Another thing I've noticed is that it does creak a little bit driving over large undulations in a straight line - and that creak also seems to come from the front right.

[mickthemaverick]

From my experience strut tops tend to be more creaky like a vintage door hinge while ball joints are a more raspy sound of continuous rubbing between surfaces. I'd describe that video noise as rasping and would definitely put my money on a ball joint. As it only rasps in one direction I would consider the track rod end as a contender because the joint changes from compression to extension when you change direction, whereas the lower ball joint experiences similar forces in either directiion although the verticle force changes with the cars momentum when actually driving.

[NewcastleFalcon]

I think you need someone to turn the wheel and if its not obvious get a listening tube and try to pinpoint it yourself.

Sounds hideous, and amazed that the chaps doing the service couldnt pinpoint it. Take it back and get them to tell you what it is, you've already paid for the Service and they have failed to discover something obvious.

Its not a broken spring is it?

Sounds more like a windy gun undoing wheel bolts. Maybe that ball joint is rotating in the arm because the ball itself is seized.

Regards Neil

PS this may help

[RichardW]

It may well be that the noise disappears when unloaded with the wheels off the ground. I think that's likely to be the bottom joint; failed strut tops I have had in the past go sticky and turn in stepwise once the spring winds them up enough to let go, so the noise you get is a series of twangs as the spring unloads. You might as well change the known bad arm / joint and see if that improves things, if not then you can change the other side.

I'm pretty sure that the ball joint will not want to part company with the arm easily, but I expect it could be persuaded out with the arm off the car with a couple of sockets and a large hammer!!

[Gibbo2286]

Back to an old topic, did the noisy Leaf transmission ever get stripped and properly diagnosed?

[Mandrake]

It may well be that the noise disappears when unloaded with the wheels off the ground.

That's what I'm expecting too - so I was going to try (carefully) rocking the steering while the front is up on ramps, or I could put the front up on a stack of concrete paving slabs.

I think that's likely to be the bottom joint; failed strut tops I have had in the past go sticky and turn in stepwise once the spring winds them up enough to let go, so the noise you get is a series of twangs as the spring unloads.

That's what I imagined it would sound like - this doesn't seem to be sticky it's just a continuous squeak with steady movement like a squeaky door hinge.

You might as well change the known bad arm / joint and see if that improves things, if not then you can change the other side.

That's basically my plan - the left hand arm is on the way and I'll fit it as soon as I can, if that doesn't help I might need to change the right hand one. I'll try to get under the car and identify the source of the noise on the weekend - if it does seem to be coming from the right hand lower ball joint I'll just order the second arm straight away as we plan to be doing a long trip in the Leaf in April so I want this issue out of the way.

I'm pretty sure that the ball joint will not want to part company with the arm easily, but I expect it could be persuaded out with the arm off the car with a couple of sockets and a large hammer!!

In the end I opted to go with an arm so that should make the job a lot easier. As long as the bolts cooperate it should be a relatively straight forward job. Of course I'll need to check the wheel alignment afterwards so I need to get my wheel alignment system set up again...

[Mandrake]

Back to an old topic, did the noisy Leaf transmission ever get stripped and properly diagnosed?

Unfortunately no, still sitting in a box on the garage floor. Just no time or space to look at it and too many other more urgent things getting in the way like the Xantia heater matrix and now these squeaky balljoint(s)...

[Mandrake]

Looks like I need to eat some humble pie.

I was convinced that the creaking noise was coming from the front right suspension but I got a chance after work to lie down in front of the car and to the sides while the steering wheel was turned and the creaking noise is definitely coming from the left hand front suspension.

So Nissan's diagnosis of the lower left ball joint as the source of the noise appears to be correct. It just goes to show how difficult it is to identify whether a suspension noise is on the left or right from inside a car!

I got a shipping notification for the arm today so hopefully it arrives early next week. I don't know whether the new arm comes with the mounting bolts or not and it's not clear whether the old bolts will be reusable or too rusted, so I'm wondering whether I should order the bolts as well or just wait until the arm arrives and see if it comes with bolts. They're not cheap though - looks like the two OEM nuts and bolts will add up to about £30...

[RichardW]

It won't come with new bolts, old ones should be OK if you give them a clean and squirt up before you take them out, then work them back and for to avoid mashing the thread.

[Mandrake]

It won't come with new bolts, old ones should be OK if you give them a clean and squirt up before you take them out, then work them back and for to avoid mashing the thread.

Normally I would agree with you but the pictures for one of the cheaper brand arms (Ridex) listed on Autodoc that I didn't choose did show bolts as part of the kit, even though it wasn't mentioned in the text.

So it's anyone's guess!

[RichardW]

I wait to be proved wrong then!

[Mandrake]

I really hate dealing with Autodoc.

I sent a message the day after ordering the Delphi suspension arm asking whether it included bolts or not and I get back the following reply (nearly a week later) which (a) doesn't answer my question and (b) seems to be totally wrong!!

Despite their claim that the part is incompatible with my car, I used the number plate search filter on their site before looking up the part, AND double checked the OEM part number (545011KA0B) here:

https://nissan-europe.epc-data.com/leaf ... 401/54501/

Against the OEM part number here:

https://www.autodoc.co.uk/delphi/7479625

So where are they getting their information from ? There are only two revisions of Leaf even listed on their site - ZE0, which goes from 2010 to mid 2017, (24 and 30kWh models) and ZE1 (2017 on) which is the 40 and 62kWh facelift models. (In fact as far as I'm aware the front lower suspension arms are the same on all Leaf's)

I guess I'll have to wait until it arrives and hold it against the original arm to be sure but I sure am annoyed with them trying to throw me a curve ball like this...they don't even make it easy for me to respond as their message looks like a text message sent in an email with my only means to reply being to send a new email explaining myself all over again.

[Mandrake]

Good news on the Leaf front.

The new Delphi suspension arm arrived last week and after fitting it on the weekend I can confirm that the Autodoc chat message from the previous post was wrong - the arm is a perfect match, as I knew it should be.

For once a car job went relatively smoothly for me - swapping the arm over was a piece of cake really. With the steering turned to extend the track rod and the bottom ball joint disconnected there is just enough room to push the bottom of the hub forward to clear the arm without disconnecting anything else, allowing the arm to be inserted into the "slot" on the body and the vertical bolts to be inserted through the bushes with no tension on the rubber bushes: (ball joint not yet engaged in the hub in the picture below)

Both bush bolts and nuts were in perfectly fine condition and were easy to undo and refit - a little too easy to be honest as they are supposed to be 155Nm and 145Nm respectively, so I don't think they were previously done up to the correct torque...

I also reused the nut and bolt through the ball joint split retainer on the basis that it's not a nylock nut and I had fitted a brand new nut and bolt a few months ago, and it too was fine.

The service manual recommends doing the final torqueing of the two arm mounting bolts with the car stood on the ground supporting its weight - this was a little bit awkward due to the low ground clearance but I was able to get both a spanner on the nuts on the top and torque wrench on the bottom reaching under the car. (Plan B would have been doing it on ramps)

And after going for a test drive I can confirm the creaking is gone. The boot was indeed split, all the way around the top.

The following day I checked the wheel alignment - it took a while to try to adapt some way to securely attach to the 5 spoke Leaf rims which are raised in the middle but this is what I ended up doing with a block of wood, some foam strip and cable ties, very secure:

The correct spec for the Leaf is 0 to 4mm toe in with 2mm recommended, however I measured almost exactly zero toe in even after repeating the measurements a second time.

One thing the car has always had is very light steering, and a slight offset to the steering wheel where I had to turn the wheel about 3 degrees to the right to go straight, according to the wheel angle sensor reported in Leafspy, (Also quite visible by eye) so I had been intending to check the wheel alignment long before the suspension arm swap but never got around to it.

I worked out that I could increase the toe in and correct the steering wheel offset at the same time if I lengthened only the left hand tie rod, so that's exactly what I did. As always it's a very sensitive adjustment - just a half turn on one side took it from 0mm to a full 4mm toe in, so I had to back it off by half again to get close to 2mm.

By fluke (or not!) the steering wheel is almost perfectly centred now when going straight ahead, and the toe in is right in the middle of the specified range.

The improvement in steering feel and motorway directional stability is quite dramatic after fixing the toe in. It now has quite significant self centring torque and does not wander slightly at speed anymore. Steering feels a little heavier than with zero toe in but not unduly so.

It's always puzzled me why manufacturers accept such a wide range of toe in values like 0 to 4mm as "OK" - the steering feel is totally different between 0 and 4 mm and 0mm should never be within the acceptable range IMHO, they should be a bit more fussy and specify 1-3mm for example.

As the steering wheel offset did not change when I swapped the arm I believe the toe in error was there all along and swapping the arm did not have any noticeable effect on the wheel alignment - not surprising when the mounting bolts and bolt holes are a very snug precision fit. While I was at it I also did a significantly overdue front/rear wheel swap.

Good to have a job go smoothly even though I was utterly exhausted after it all.

Next up, some time before the MOT in September, new front discs and pads as the inside faces of the discs are in pretty terrible (rusty, pitted wobbly) condition and have now had both the MOT man and Nissan complaining that they need doing.

[Mandrake]

Finally working on removing the Xantia's dashboard to do the heater matrix swap, but I'm stuck on a few things.

1) I can't get the glovebox out - I've removed all the screws around the frame of the box and the left side seems to be loose but the right hand side is hanging on firm. Can't find any screws underneath ether. The strip that goes right along below the gearbox is also still firmly attached with no visible screws. The car has a passenger side airbag above the gearbox as well as the Series 1 handle.

2) I can't remove the heater control box - it looks like you're supposed to unclip and detach the two bowden cables to pull the box out, however there is zero spare length on them so you can barely even maneuvere the box into a position where you can see their attachment let alone disconnect them. The radio and other brackets above and below the heater controls box are already removed.

I've had the heater control box out of a S2 Xantia before and don't remember it being that difficult, so this seems different to me.

3) What's the trick with the steering wheel ? It's a Series one so doesn't have the split shroud, and it has both radio controls and airbag so it's the "fat" version of the steering wheel, however I don't know how to get the top off the steering wheel to get at the main steering column nut. Any hints here ? Do I lever the button pods off the side ? I tried that gingerly but I didn't want to break them and they didn't seem to eager to let go. A quick search on the forum isn't turning anything up.

[Skull]

Simon

I've only had XII but this may help?:

Glovebox has torx screws under the felt as well as the visual ones - I think there's 9 altogether ? [Edit - diagram added but doesn't really show screws]

Heating box should be slack enough to remove the metal clips off the control cables - try moving the sliders to give a little more slack?

Airbag is retained by two 25 torx screws from the rear of steering wheel (1/2 lock each way for access)

Good Luck

Paul's