Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

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DHallworth
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by DHallworth »

Thanks for the kind words on the fleet Simon :)

Glad your wheels are on the way to being sorted! I was at the stage of doubting the machine but it's never lied before. Am glad we went with it in the end though as it seemed to have made a difference when we had it out.

David.
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Mandrake
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

As great as my car feels now with spheres and better wheel balance, the ride I had in the Activa shows that it still has more room for improvement. :)

Since you did the Activa ram bushes the suspension is completely silent mechanically, not the slightest hint of a rattle or noise from front or rear even on rough surfaces - which is not the case on mine where there is an obvious rattle from the front right over some surfaces, and a significant kick back on the steering when steering sharply over a broken surface.

I was disappointed to find that the right hand outer track rod joint seemed absolutely fine when we had the wheel off - I couldn't detect any slack in it at all.

Which doesn't leave many culprits - drop link or lower swivel joint. I don't actually think it's the drop links as they look like they've been recently replaced, and besides I wouldn't think a droplink would contribute to wheel/steering vibration or kick back on the steering, whereas a swivel joint would.

I've been thinking about the noise it makes and the nature of the symptoms and I'm now leaning heavily in the direction of a badly worn lower swivel joint on the right hand side, and there may be a little bit of wear on the left one as well.

As I've already got two new swivel joints bought for the old V6 but never fitted just gathering dust it makes sense to do them first. I'll need to get myself that socket tool for unscrewing the ball joint and a bar to restrain the hub, but it's a job that can wait until I'm settled into my new garage. :)

The wheel balance is certainly vastly improved - I went for a speedy drive yesterday and didn't really notice any wheel vibration at all - I think what vibration remains will prove to be a worn swivel joint...
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by RichardW »

I've found that putting the suspension on high can mask play in TRE - I'd re-check with the wheels on the ground. Give the wheel a good shake on the horizontal axis, if there's play in the TRE you'll hear it clonking.

Drop links can be noisy, even when new if cheap, but yes, shouldn't contribute to steering kick back. How's the tracking looking? Changing the inner track rod joint on mine cured a lot of noise....

If the bottom BJ does need doing, I've got big bar and extender, and vice to hold it if required - but I'm also thinking of buying one of these which I reckon would fetch it out no bother. Just need an excuse really :lol: :mrgreen:
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:I've found that putting the suspension on high can mask play in TRE - I'd re-check with the wheels on the ground. Give the wheel a good shake on the horizontal axis, if there's play in the TRE you'll hear it clonking.
Good point - it was on high at the time I checked. If I rock the steering wheel back and forth vigorously with the wheels on the ground there is a clonk from somewhere that can be felt on the steering wheel...
Drop links can be noisy, even when new if cheap, but yes, shouldn't contribute to steering kick back. How's the tracking looking? Changing the inner track rod joint on mine cured a lot of noise....
I suppose it could be an inner track rod joint too. There is definitely steering kickback if you hit certain types of corrugations - especially if you hit them at an angle or if you're turning right into the corrugation. A drop link shouldn't cause that but swivel joint or either track rod joint potentially could.

It's also a bit noisy/rumbly at the front right when driving straight ahead on rough finished surfaces - it sounds a bit like like the infamous "loose calliper" syndrome of the V6 callipers (which the other car had on the left hand side) and it does quieten down a fair bit when I apply the brakes slightly, HOWEVER I've realised that not only would that quieten a rattly calliper, the torque from the brake would also quieten a loose lower swivel joint as it would apply a constant torque in one direction to take up the slack in the joint instead of letting it rattle around...which also points me towards the lower swivel joint as the culprit as its the only joint that fits all the symptoms. (Unless there are multiple faults of course! [-X )

Tracking I can't check at the moment - the laser alignment gizmo I built is currently sitting locked away in storage so I can't get my hands on it until we move - nowhere to use it until then anyway as it needs a reasonable spread of flat smooth ground to use it. I will check it when we move though, and again after replacing any tracking affecting joints.
If the bottom BJ does need doing, I've got big bar and extender, and vice to hold it if required - but I'm also thinking of buying one of these which I reckon would fetch it out no bother. Just need an excuse really :lol: :mrgreen:
I helped my Dad change the lower balljoint (and lower arm) on his Xantia and we did it on the car without removing the hub, but I can't remember the exact details of what we did as it was 9 years ago now...

I do remember he fabricated a tool very similar to this to unscrew the balljoint:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/18151352 ... 108&ff19=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I don't remember for sure how we stabilised the bottom of the hub while using a breaker bar on the tool. I think what we had is about a metre long steel bar that was fabricated with a curve in the end to bolt onto the hub via two of the wheel bolts - one person held the bar and thus kept the hub steady while the bottom arm was disconnected and the other used the breaker bar. That approach makes it a two person job though unless that bar can be wedged against the garage wall! :lol:
Last edited by Mandrake on 12 Sep 2014, 11:38, edited 1 time in total.
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CitroJim
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by CitroJim »

Those electric rattle guns are really good Richard :-D

Team WFA have one and it makes light work of lots of things. I don't believe we've tried it on a lower swivel though although Chris will be the best to comment on that.

Some swivels can be absolute trials and yet at other times they can be easy. There's just no telling...
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

Seriously tempted by that rattle gun! :twisted:

I also need a hand held angle grinder to make short work of tasks like troublesome drop links... :wink:

Just had a thought - perhaps someone can confirm my thinking.

If I use a breaker bar on the bottom balljoint (with the correct tool) the force of me pulling on the bar will also (unless supported at the pivot) try to pull the hub sideways and potentially damage the strut top rubber, however if I was to use that same socket tool on the rattle gun and hold the rattle gun steady, it would impart only rotational force with no side thrust on the strut assembly ?

Thus the rattle gun combined with the right tool to fit the balljoint outer should be able to undo it without any extra support of the hub besides me holding the rattle gun steady ??
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by RichardW »

I have thought about the rattle gun before - it came back to mind last week as I was stripping the hub on the 307 in prep for the wheel bearing - which I am off to do this afternoon now I have the correct (hopefully!) bolts to pull the drive flange :roll:

Anyway, back to the ball joint...

see this thread a few weeks back: http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... =3&t=48618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

which includes this video:

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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Mandrake »

Yep I've seen that video before but I was hoping to avoid the scaffold pole and tie down straps by using the rattle gun... :twisted:

I'm also hoping my torque wrench would be up to the job of tightening the new balljoint (outer) does anyone know how many Nm it is ?
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote: If I use a breaker bar on the bottom balljoint (with the correct tool) the force of me pulling on the bar will also (unless supported at the pivot) try to pull the hub sideways and potentially damage the strut top rubber, however if I was to use that same socket tool on the rattle gun and hold the rattle gun steady, it would impart only rotational force with no side thrust on the strut assembly ?

Thus the rattle gun combined with the right tool to fit the balljoint outer should be able to undo it without any extra support of the hub besides me holding the rattle gun steady ??
I can see where you're coming from Simon but I doubt. You still really need to counter-hold the hub in my opinion. Even using a rattle gun I think the temptation for it to turn the whole hub and exert force on the steering rack will be very strong.

Chris and I looked at this problem at the weekend and decided the only way would be to put a bar bolted across the hub flange to hold it as we felt the forces put on the steering rack would otherwise be too great...

It's not a hard job by any means to have the whole hub off...
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Re:

Post by CitroJim »

superloopy wrote:But then you need an industrial sized vice mounted extremely rigidly to be able to withstand a mighty amount of torque needed to separate said bottom joint from hub.
Got one here Mike. My grandad's old blacksmith's vice..

A great tool!

I use a four foot breaker bar to do the necessary and as you say, some can be biblically tight...
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Re: Re:

Post by CitroJim »

superloopy wrote: Must be bolted to a bench with biblical sized bolts then .... my vice was whimpishly inadequate :(
It's well bolted Mike and if they are extremely tight the whole bench moves... :lol:
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by xantia_v6 »

CitroJim wrote:
Mandrake wrote: If I use a breaker bar on the bottom balljoint (with the correct tool) the force of me pulling on the bar will also (unless supported at the pivot) try to pull the hub sideways and potentially damage the strut top rubber, however if I was to use that same socket tool on the rattle gun and hold the rattle gun steady, it would impart only rotational force with no side thrust on the strut assembly ?

Thus the rattle gun combined with the right tool to fit the balljoint outer should be able to undo it without any extra support of the hub besides me holding the rattle gun steady ??
I can see where you're coming from Simon but I doubt. You still really need to counter-hold the hub in my opinion. Even using a rattle gun I think the temptation for it to turn the whole hub and exert force on the steering rack will be very strong.

Chris and I looked at this problem at the weekend and decided the only way would be to put a bar bolted across the hub flange to hold it as we felt the forces put on the steering rack would otherwise be too great...

It's not a hard job by any means to have the whole hub off...
I think I agree with Simon here, the mass of the hub and carrier is enough that the torque reaction through the steering will be no more than the torque through the handle of the rattle gun.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by CitroJim »

We need a definitive answer to this :wink:

I'll admit I don't like to use too much force on steering components so I may well be being very conservative here...
Northern_Mike

Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 blog

Post by Northern_Mike »

CitroJim wrote:We need a definitive answer to this :wink:

I'll admit I don't like to use too much force on steering components so I may well be being very conservative here...
How much force is going through the steering components on a fast bend at 100+mph though ? That's within the car's design limits. I realise it's a different sort of force, but these components are pretty strong.
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Re: Re:

Post by RichardW »

superloopy wrote:
CitroJim wrote:
superloopy wrote: Must be bolted to a bench with biblical sized bolts then .... my vice was whimpishly inadequate :(
It's well bolted Mike and if they are extremely tight the whole bench moves... :lol:
Bolt it down with bolts of biblical proportions also then :)
When I fitted my vice I welded up a frame of angle iron and bolted the vice down through that, and put in a 4x2 support under the edge of the bench. Not had any problems with it trying to move :mrgreen: