Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[CitroJim]

That's excellent Simon

[Mandrake]

Me and the new CrossClimate+ tyres on the Leaf are just not getting along, and come spring they're going to have to go. (Maybe sooner!)

They simply ride too harsh, there's just no way to overlook it or get around it. The Leaf is hardly a soft riding car to begin with but on the original dunlop tyres it felt "cushioned" over small bumps and a bit bumpy (but not harsh) over larger bumps - like a lot of conventionally sprung cars.

There is no way you could describe the CrossClimate+ as cushioned. They're without doubt the harshest tyres I've ever driven on. Every small imperfection in the road crashes harshly through the body of the car and quite frankly makes driving unpleasant. I've gone from enjoying driving the Leaf to work and back to finding it a real chore due to the bone crunchingly harsh ride it has now. I can't bear the thought of having to put up with this harsh ride for the next 4+ years as they wear down before I can be rid of them.

I tried dropping the pressures 2 psi and there is a definite improvement in the ride quality - until the tyres warm up and the pressure increases and it gets harsh again. And dropping the pressure by 2 psi is increasing drag noticably - you can feel the loss in acceleration going from 40-60mph at the lower pressure, it feels like the car is clawing its way through quicksand, and the sharp "instant torque" EV characteristic is lost.

That coupled with the very loud swishing noise when you accelerate and I've already had enough of them and want them gone. I've bought many tyres over the years and never regretted any of my purchases, least of all a set of Michelins - until now. They get glowing reviews in the press and from owners, I've even seen many owners say that they ride better than their old tyres - poppycock!

Granted I'm only sampling them in 215/50/17 (Tekna wheels) so they might have riden slightly better in the 205/55/16 used on the Acenta wheels but I think the fundamental issue is they're Extra Load (XL) rated tyres - and are not available in "standard" load rating. (They are 95W while the OEM tyres are 91V) XL tyres have reinforced stiffer sidewalls.

So what do I do ? I've put a lot of money into these tyres but I can't possibly keep driving on them for four years when I find them so harsh and unpleasant to drive on. I'm struggling to even contemplate driving on them through the winter to be honest.

Some options I have:

1) Change them for Vredestein Quatrac 5 All Seasons ASAP and sell the CrossClimates on ebay (or speakev to another leaf owner) with hardly any wear on them. I used the Vredestein's on the Ion for 3 years. I know them fairly well and they are a tyre which rides slightly softer than the typical summer tyre (as you might expect) in fact I used to pump them up slightly above regular pressure in the summer. This in contrast to the CrossClimates which are much stiffer than the summer tyres they replaced.

Pro's: The quatrac 5 are roughly equal in wet braking and slightly better in snow than the crossclimates, but are softer and less grippy in summer. So I'd sacrifice a bit of summer grip, however ride is more important to me than ultimate cornering, and the Leaf is not a fast car anyway.

2) Suffer through the winter on these tyres (putting about 6k miles on them) then fit some good riding summer tyres like Michelin Energy Saver in the spring - same as I have on the Xantia, then work out what to do for next winter which could be:

a) Just chance it on the energy savers in the winter (the Xantia does OK in the snow on its summer tyres, not brilliant, but OK)
b) get a second set of wheels in Acenta size - tyres for the Tekna size wheels are about £136 each, Acenta size tyres are about £80 each.. and put some full winters or quatrac 5's on those, so then I have a summer and winte set.

Anyone have any thoughts ? Especially about how to deal with selling on the old ones as trying to ship tyres by courier to a buyer is not something I've ever tried to do before.

Really disapointed to be in this situation but there's no point suffering for years with an unpleasant harsh ride and a tyre dynamic feel that I just can't stomach.

Edit: Quatrac 5 £181 each and only available in XL for 215/50/17 So unless I get some Acenta wheels they're a no go as well...

Edit2: Michelin Energy Saver + not available in 215/50/17 either.

[Zelandeth]

Anything with the dreaded XL suffix is likely to ride as though they're filled with concrete in my experience. Sorry I can't really help, but I do feel your pain. There are very few options in the correct size/speed rating for the Jag (215/70 15 W) so I'm looking at £220+ each there!

If it were me I'd probably be looking for a set of the 16" wheels as it sounds like that opens up a lot more options to you.

[GiveMeABreak]

Zel - plenty of 215 70 15 W tyres from Oponeo with prices from £45 up: at these prices you could afford to change them 4 times for the price of those £200 tyres. Gone are the days when I pay anything over £100 for a tyre now - branded ones in my experience last no longer than lower - to mid range ones.

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-finder/r= ... r17/ip=1/w

I always buy mine in and get them fitted locally - simply because of the huge choice.

I was happy with Michelin Cross Climates on the X7 and have them on the C3 - mainly got them as they are a summer tyre but winter rated too. Maybe as these are heavier cars the ride is not so harsh as a leaf!

[daviemck2006]

It's probably the 17" and lower profile that is making the tyres harsh. My vw bora is running 16" wheels, I cant remember offhand the width and profile, my seat leon is running 225/45x17 and the ride is noticeably firmer on the leon compared to the bora, which is essentially a very similar chassis underneath

[Mandrake]

It's probably the 17" and lower profile that is making the tyres harsh. My vw bora is running 16" wheels, I cant remember offhand the width and profile, my seat leon is running 225/45x17 and the ride is noticeably firmer on the leon compared to the bora, which is essentially a very similar chassis underneath

Yes I'm sure the 17" Tekna wheels won't ride as well as the 16" Acenta wheels for the same type of tyre.

However I'm comparing two different tyres for the same wheel size. And while I hate to admit it, the Dunlop Enasave rode a lot better than the CrossClimate+, with no real harshness. Didn't grip as well though certainly in the wet.

I've let the pressure down by about 3psi which has gone from very harsh to somewhat tolerable, if it wears the tyres out a bit faster so be it. I'd rather do 20k miles with tolerable ride than 30k miles with a ride that is making me miserable every day...

I'll revisit the situation in the spring and try to work out what I'm going to do, as even in summer tyres the selection for 215/50/17 is a bit thin on the ground and expensive... for example Energy Saver+ not available in 215/50/17 !

[white exec]

The comfort killers here are, as said, the low profile and the stiff side walls.
We know the Michelin Energy Savers make a comfortable and quiet ride, especially when 60/65/70 size.
The more sidewall, the more 'give'.

The effect of lowering the tyre pressure by, say, 2 psi will be felt more on a higher profile tyre than a lower one, simply because the high profile tyre contains much more air, and so there is more of it to flex.

Worth checking the accuracy of your pressure gauges too. I've has several which were not good.

Think I'd be looking at a 60 profile MichEnSvr and suitable wheels. Hopefully hub dimensions will allow that sort of thing. Were there other wheel type choices for the Leaf? Could be a starting point.

Think we've both been spoilt by the Citroen ride, Simon, and anything lumpy just doesn't go down well. Bad experiences with a few rental cars with tyres pumped to 3 to 3.5 bar!

[CitroJim]

Think we've both been spoilt by the Citroen ride

That's true, even the conventionally sprung Citroens, like my AX and Saxo ride beautifully and are comfy way beyond how their small size might suggest...

And they go round corners well

[RichardW]

Sorry to hear you are not getting on with them, Simon.... That's an annoyance! I checked on Camskill, and all but one of the All Season tyres are XL - the only one that isn't is a Hankook, which is only H speed rated - I've got Hankooks on my 3008 and they are OK. Looking at the summer tyres most are also XL - presumably to get the stiffness in the side wall. I noted that my Sister's car is on 205/50/17 CrossClimates and she needs 2 new tyres, so might be in the market for a pair of nearly new CrossClimates.....!

[Mandrake]

The comfort killers here are, as said, the low profile and the stiff side walls.

Indeed. The ride was surprisingly acceptable on the original Dunlops though despite the low profile. Almost "cushioned" feeling over the smaller irregularities, certainly a big step up on the harsh ride on the Peugeot, however caught flat footed on larger bumps due to the relatively limited suspension travel compared to the Xantia. But certainly perfectly acceptable for day to day driving and about what you'd expect from the average boring family car.

But with the fully inflated CrossClimates it is just unbearably harsh especially in warm weather when you've been on the motorway for a while and the pressure has gone up a few psi. Every tiny crack in the road crashes through the body of the car in a way I've never felt before. I think it's pretty clear that the XL rated CrossClimate+ just has really really hard sidewalls, because the tread looks and feels nice and compliant, but the sidewall is flat and ungiving. If they ever did a non-XL version it might be worth a look.

We know the Michelin Energy Savers make a comfortable and quiet ride, especially when 60/65/70 size.
The more sidewall, the more 'give'.

I've certainly found the Energy Savers on the Xantia give a good ride - and despite not being considered a "performance" tyre, they seem to corner pretty well too as the Xantia regularly gets chucked around the corners. If they give the best ride of the readily available affordable Michelin summer tyres I think I'd go for them.

The effect of lowering the tyre pressure by, say, 2 psi will be felt more on a higher profile tyre than a lower one, simply because the high profile tyre contains much more air, and so there is more of it to flex.

Perhaps, but the sidewall stiffness must factor into this as well. I've dropped them about 3psi to make them tolerable for now.

Worth checking the accuracy of your pressure gauges too. I've has several which were not good.

I have a little analogue pocket gauge which I always use to adjust the pressures. (I don't trust the one in my foot pump or those at garages) It seems to agree with the built in tyre pressure monitoring system within half a psi so I think it's pretty good.

Think I'd be looking at a 60 profile MichEnSvr and suitable wheels. Hopefully hub dimensions will allow that sort of thing. Were there other wheel type choices for the Leaf? Could be a starting point.

Not sure if wheels for 60 profile would be available but some wheels from the rest of the Nissan family apparently fit, like those from the Juke. Safest bet is probably just some Acenta wheels though which fit 205/55/16.

Think we've both been spoilt by the Citroen ride, Simon, and anything lumpy just doesn't go down well. Bad experiences with a few rental cars with tyres pumped to 3 to 3.5 bar!

Yes indeed. Totally spoilt by the Xantia and hugely disappointed by the ride of every other car I have ever been in recently to be honest. It just seems that nobody cares two hoots about ride quality these days!

[Mandrake]

Sorry to hear you are not getting on with them, Simon.... That's an annoyance! I checked on Camskill, and all but one of the All Season tyres are XL - the only one that isn't is a Hankook, which is only H speed rated - I've got Hankooks on my 3008 and they are OK. Looking at the summer tyres most are also XL - presumably to get the stiffness in the side wall. I noted that my Sister's car is on 205/50/17 CrossClimates and she needs 2 new tyres, so might be in the market for a pair of nearly new CrossClimates.....!

Yeah, all season tyres seem to be a bust, they're all in XL in the two sizes that fit the Leaf. (215/50/17 and 205/55/16) Even the Quatrac 5 in those sizes are XL, and way more expensive than the CrossClimate+ in 215/50/17 I wonder if the 145/65/15 and 175/55/15 Quatrac 5's I had on the Ion were XL as well ? I don't think they were, but probably because they were so small.

I think what I'm going to end up doing is put up with these over the winter at lower pressures, get some second hand Acenta 16" wheels in the spring and put some 205/55/16 Michelin Energy Savers on them for summer use. In 205/55/16 energy savers are only about £64 each, vs the CrossClimates in 215/50/17 being £136 each. The tyres are cheap enough in that size to nearly pay for the wheels...

A combination of the smaller wheel, higher profile and low rolling resistance summer tyre should give a massive improvement in ride quality for the 8 months a year (March to October) that I'll be able to use them. Also the narrower width energy savers should be better for miles/kWh economy. I prefer the looks of the Tekna wheels (they do look nice) but ride quality and tyre cost is more important to me. I actually regret going for the Tekna spec in some ways as it has lumbered me with the larger less comfortable wheels that have a much more limited selection of much more expensive tyres!

I'm likely to keep this car for around 4 years and do around 50k miles in it so I think I'm just going to have to take it on the chin as a lesson hard learnt and plump for the smaller Acenta wheels and dedicated non-XL summer tyres for use across most of the year to make the car as comfortable and pleasant to drive as possible in the parts of the year where we are making longer trips like the beach, and just put up with the bumpy "winter" tyres for a few months of the year so as not to waste the money that went into the CrossClimates.

I was a big fan of using All Season tyres on the Peugeot but if nearly all larger All Season tyres are XL I'm going to have to seriously reconsider that! I might be sticking to summer and winter wheel sets from now on until they wake up and start making non-XL All Seasons. The ride sacrifice is just too great. (And in the case of the CrossClimate specifically, they're very noisy under acceleration as well) Nobody expects to put on a winter capable tyre and get a much harsher ride - you actually expect them to be softer!

[Mandrake]

In other happier non-tyre news I thought I'd share some impressions of the effect of cold weather on the range of the Leaf vs the Ion, now that we're starting to have some crisp mornings. It's nowhere near winter yet but this morning was 3.7 degrees when we left for work - considerably colder than any previous day so I was interested to see what it did to the driving efficiency and range vs 10-15 degrees.

Those reading this blog regularly will know that the range loss in the winter of the Ion was horrendous. For 4C weather it would lose about 25% range, and for -5C it would lose a huge 40% of its range, largely due to the power hungry PTC heater.

The Leaf has a heat pump so should do much better as the heat pump should use about 1/3rd as much energy for the same heat. Sure enough the consumption increase / range loss was only about 7.5% this morning, a big improvement over the 25% I would have seen in the Ion in similar conditions, and I think we're probably on track for a range loss of about 12.5% in -5C conditions vs 40%.

However after having the car for a while and observing it I think the heat pump is only one of the factors and there are two others that contribute greatly. One is that it has proper plugged in preheating.

I have the climate control departure timer set to 7:30am and the car is plugged in over night. At around 7am the heater will come on automatically to get it up to a pre-set temperature (I use 19C) for the set departure time. This allows all the energy to warm the car up to come directly from mains power instead of the battery and since it takes more energy to heat up a very cold car from scratch than it does to maintain it once warm this is quite a big win for range conservation as battery operation of the heater only has to maintain an already warm car, at least for the outbound morning journey.

(It's also really nice to get into a defrosted comfortably warm car with zero effort other than remembering to plug it in the night before! I'm looking forward to the preheating in the snow and ice that's for sure) The preheating can also turn on the rear window defroster, heated seats and heated steering wheel automatically as needed.

The other thing which I think helps a lot and goes hand in hand with the preheating is the car is very well insulated - as noted earlier I found a thick layer of carpet underfelt inside the doors, and the car just "feels" snug and well insulated, doesn't have any drafts around the feet like the Peugeot had, and feels comfortable without having to have hot air blasting from the vents to make up for heat loss and draughts.

Watching the climate control energy consumption during driving it drew a significant amount of power for the first few minutes after leaving, (about 1.5kW) but not long after that the average consumption dropped down to around 500 watts from the heat pump - with outside conditions of 4C!

So the heating system really isn't working hard at all to keep the car warm, at least at 4C.

The funny thing is the Leaf isn't considered to be particularly efficient in the winter compared to some other EV's like Hyundai's and Kia's which have fabulously efficient heaters and drivetrains, so it just goes to show how poor the winter efficiency of the Ion really was.

[mickthemaverick]

As the colder weather approaches it would also be interesting to note the level of power you are using overnight to run the preheating etc. if you could gather some data on that Simon?

[Mandrake]

As the colder weather approaches it would also be interesting to note the level of power you are using overnight to run the preheating etc. if you could gather some data on that Simon?

The heater isn't running overnight, it's only running for about 30 minutes from 7am to 7:30.

At the current 4C conditions it seems to be averaging about 2kW over that half hour period so about 1kWh of total energy to preheat the cabin from 4C up to 19C. I'm sure it will use a bit more when it gets properly cold. 1kWh is equal to a little bit under 4 miles range in colder weather or about 1/10th of the total energy I'm using for the 37 mile daily commute.

Something to consider as well is even if you didn't preheat, just driving the car with the climate control set to 19C would require the same amount of energy to warm up the car - but then it would be coming from the battery (and thus affect range) and you would be starting the journey cold. So you're not really using that much more energy by preheating, you're just warming the car up a bit sooner.

[mickthemaverick]

Sorry Simon I didn't make myself clear. What I was wondering was how ambient temperature may affect charging efficiency and hence power consumed versus range gained per £ of electricity used compared to summer time.