Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[myglaren]

Get one with shiny ears Simon....they grow on you

Regards Neil

Don't you think that Simon would look rather silly with shiny ears?

[Mandrake]

The Ion is due for an MOT before the 16th of March and I think the front tyres are going to need replacing to pass. For a quick sanity check, do people think this bald edge is a fail ? I suspect so:

They've done over 25k miles so I'm inclined to just replace them to have a trouble free MOT. I may be selling it in the next few months so good tyres and a fresh MOT will go a long way towards that.

Another thing I may need to look at prior to selling it is to fix the vibration/wiggle that it has at the front. I've been putting up with it as I haven't been able to definitely identify the cause, but I'm worried that it might cause a "return visit" if I ended up selling it privately...

One symptom is at motorway speeds there is a significant vibration at the front which can be felt on the steering wheel and through the floor, however unlike a typical wheel balance problem the problem isn't always there. It comes and goes from day to day - some days it's quite annoying, other days it's virtually not there at all, which I think rules out a wheel balance problem ? (And besides, I've had it back twice to have the wheels rebalanced and it didn't fix the issue)

The other symptom is that at much lower speeds around 15mph the car sometimes "wiggles" sideways, in that it the car steers slightly left and right with each rotation of the wheels. It's not there all the time and it's much more noticable on very smooth seal than rough seal. I can't tell for sure whether the problem is at the front or rear but I suspect both problems are caused by rust related runout on one of the front discs causing it to drag only over part of the revolution of the wheel.

I replaced the front discs two years ago because the original ones were severely rusted and a bit warped (and were causing a bad vibration at speed, similar to what I have again now but much worse) however I've never been happy with the quality of the replacement discs and pads (Apec) as the pads didn't even fit into the caliper carriers until I filed nearly a millimetre of each ear, the discs rusted very quickly, and it's a constant battle to try to keep rust off the discs.

The pads grind noisily on the disc rust every morning when it's raining, and I can hear the pads still dragging on the rust even after I release the brake pedal. (Not good for range!) It takes some deliberate hard braking with regeneration disabled (neutral) on a nearly daily basis to try to keep the rust worn down to a bearable level.

So I'm thinking that disc runout, either actual runout in the disc or just runout of the rust lips that have formed are causing the vibration and the wiggle, so I'm thinking of replacing the discs again but with a different make of disc.

I don't have a dial gauge to measure runout, so I'm thinking I should try to get hold of one to measure the runout when I fit the replacement discs to make sure they are mounted the right way around to minimise any runout. Someone commented that I should have done this when I fitted the discs last time.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a dial gauge that is not too expensive that would be suitable for measuring a brake disc ?

[xantia_v6]

Check the wheel run-out. A bent wheel should have been picked up when the wheels were balanced, but perhaps a bent hub?

[Mandrake]

Check the wheel run-out. A bent wheel should have been picked up when the wheels were balanced, but perhaps a bent hub?

I've done an eyeball runout check of all the wheel rims where the tyre bead meets - the rear right wheel was dented so was replaced about 6 months ago - they all eyeball OK now with no obvious (at least to the eye) runout.

It has had me stumped for over a year now and the need to drive the car daily has meant I've largely ignored it, but now that selling it could be on the cards soon I'm worried that the new owner will get 10 miles down the road and come back with "WTF is this wiggle at low speed".

I've never seen anything like it before. The fact that it can be quite bad one day (typically wet weather) but almost absent other days suggests to me that it's a brake related problem.

[Mandrake]

Having a look at the brake discs available for the Ion,

https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/search?ke ... rake+discs

I see: Blue Print, ABS, Ashika, Brembo, ATE, Hella, Delphi, Textar, Kavo, Ridex.

Of those the only ones I've heard of are Brembo and Delphi! I've generally stuck with Bosch brake discs but they don't seem to do any for the Ion.

I'm hoping to find something a bit better quality than the Apec, something which doesn't rust so quickly as with regenerative braking rust build up is a real problem. Just go for Brembo or Delphi ?

[RichardW]

That tyre will pass - 1.6mm min across the central 3/4, outside can be bald and it will pass (as long as the cords are not visible. Looks like it's running too much toe in however!!

Most aftermarket discs seem to rust much faster then OE originals -but aren't these ridiculously expensive for the ION? If you're selling it anyway, stick what ever known name you can find at reasonable price....there's no come back on private sales.

Edit. OE discs £150. Each

[white exec]

Blueprint are high quality items, Simon. Have had wheel bearings, discs, and a SMF kit from them, all without issue. Last set of discs went straight on with almost nil run-out. Clean hubs important.

My mechanical dial gauge (and its magnetic stand) came from Screwfix. Plenty of them about.

Re: the wobble/wander, even if the wheels are running true, how about the tyres themselves, both laterally and vertically/circumference? Oval tyres can be "balanced out" on the tyre depot's machines, but still run wobbly on the road.

If two tyres are suffering from poor shape, then depending on the luck of your journey, they may beat together or not, laterally and or/vertically, causing all sorts of inconsistent behaviour. Tyre ovality or run out of 1mm or less I would find acceptable. Above that, I would reject them when fitted. I always peep under the balancing hood, when new ones are fitted and balanced.

[Mandrake]

That tyre will pass - 1.6mm min across the central 3/4, outside can be bald and it will pass (as long as the cords are not visible. Looks like it's running too much toe in however!!

Cords not visible yet, but very close. See the strange patches on the edge of the bald bit where it has worn completely through the outer carcass to the inner carcass - that's how the rear tyre with the dented rim went just before the wire cords started showing through and within a thousand miles there were snapped wire cords.

That tyre was originally on the front left - which is the corner that got the lower suspension arm bent when it hit a traffic island, however I think that arm might have been slightly bent prior to that due to pothole impacts... after the arm was replaced the tracking was set by the garage and I swapped the front tyres to see if there was any further wear on the front left outer edge on the other tyre but there hasn't been. So I think the original source of the wear is gone.

Most aftermarket discs seem to rust much faster then OE originals -but aren't these ridiculously expensive for the ION? If you're selling it anyway, stick what ever known name you can find at reasonable price....there's no come back on private sales.

Edit. OE discs £150. Each

£60 for a pair of Brembo discs, and about £20 for a set of pads. Some of the other brands listed are significantly cheaper however going too cheap last time has probably worked against me as they're badly rusted again and grind like crazy in the mornings. The Apec discs and pads I fitted last time were £54 including freight for discs and pads, so probably a bit too cheap!

[Mandrake]

Blueprint are high quality items, Simon. Have had wheel bearings, discs, and a SMF kit from them, all without issue. Last set of discs went straight on with almost nil run-out. Clean hubs important.

My mechanical dial gauge (and its magnetic stand) came from Screwfix. Plenty of them about.

Thanks, will check out Screwfix, there is one not far from here.

Edit: Can't find any dial gauges on screwfix's website!

Re: the wobble/wander, even if the wheels are running true, how about the tyres themselves, both laterally and vertically/circumference? Oval tyres can be "balanced out" on the tyre depot's machines, but still run wobbly on the road.

If two tyres are suffering from poor shape, then depending on the luck of your journey, they may beat together or not, laterally and or/vertically, causing all sorts of inconsistent behaviour. Tyre ovality or run out of 1mm or less I would find acceptable. Above that, I would reject them when fitted. I always peep under the balancing hood, when new ones are fitted and balanced.

If there is any ovality of the tyres causing this then hopefully it will go away with new tyres... as I say, I'm not sure what the cause of the wiggle is, I've tried to find it but can't positively identify it.

Back when I first got the car the vibration at speed from the front was really bad, it improved after it got new tyres, and improved again when I fitted the new discs and pads down to a tolerable level, but it has never been vibration free.

I don't seem to have much luck with vibration in cars - the Xantia also has wheel imbalance at motorway speeds and I simply can't get anyone to balance it correctly to the point where I've given up trying and just put up with it.

If I have zero wheel vibration at speed on my next car it will be a novelty!

[myglaren]

I don't seem to have much luck with vibration in cars - the Xantia also has wheel imbalance at motorway speeds and I simply can't get anyone to balance it correctly to the point where I've given up trying and just put up with it.

If I have zero wheel vibration at speed on my next car it will be a novelty!

I have harped on about this a fair bit in the past but I always had vibration on both C5s at aprox. 70mph. The steering wheel and column would shudder and chatter, tried all sorts of tyre makes and multiple attempts at balancing with no improvement.
After seeing some comparison videos of Sailun tyres against others I tried some out and from the first few moments was impressed - I'm sure there was a fair measure of wishful thinking but they seemed quieter and smoother.
I was told to have the balanced as the mechanic I use can't balance Citroen wheels. I thought I would defer that a bit until they were run in, then forgot.

It wasn't until the rally in Little Horwood that I realised, on the way home and after a good 300 miles that day that there had been no vibration whatsoever (until slightly later when I bent a wheel ).
Since then I have fitted nothing other than Sailun tyres and they have performed better than any others, at many times the cost of Sailuns. Just had a set of ice & snow tyres fitted and they are just the same, sure-footed and vibration free.
I don't expect everyone to agree but they have performed very well for me.

[white exec]

This is what I have, Simon - exactly the same one...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/indicator-gaug ... 186&sr=8-3
Very sensitive and adjustable for awkward angles. Magnetic grip very powerful.

[bobins]

I fitted Brembo pads and discs on the rear of my hairdryer and have been impressed with how little they rust and how good the quality was/is.

[Mandrake]

This is what I have, Simon - exactly the same one...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/indicator-gaug ... 186&sr=8-3
Very sensitive and adjustable for awkward angles. Magnetic grip very powerful.

Thanks Chris, looks like a bargain, and I've always wanted a dial gauge anyway so I've ordered it...

I fitted Brembo pads and discs on the rear of my hairdryer and have been impressed with how little they rust and how good the quality was/is.

Hair dryer ?

I've decided to chance my luck with the tyres, if my local garage doesn't like the tyres for the MOT they can order a pair in and fit them for me the following weekend. I reckon them passing is 50/50 to be honest, as the opposite shoulder will be struggling to make 1.6mm.

I have decided to replace the discs and pads though hopefully with something better quality, and before the MOT. On the way to work at motorway speeds this morning I was noticing quite a vibration, I tried pressing the brake at the same time as the accelerator at 65mph and the vibration got much, much worse and noisier as well and is definitely at the front. So I think that vibration is clearly run out of the discs.

Whether the run out is due to a bent hub as suggested earlier (possible I guess, but unlikely) or the disc itself, or whether it's just run out of the massive rust lip that has formed (most likely I think) the end result is that it grabs as it rotates around and causes a lot of vibration and noise.

I was also noticing the wiggle at low speed this morning, but this time it was more of a "lurch" where the car feels like it is being pulled back slightly every revolution of the wheel. Hopefully that is also the front brakes, as I've had problems with the rear drum brakes in the past as well.

Due to the rust build up on the discs and especially on the lips the brakes aren't nearly as sensitive as they should be unless you give them daily hard exercise, so they might be marginal for the MOT.

[Gibbo2286]

That tyre will pass - 1.6mm min across the central 3/4, outside can be bald and it will pass (as long as the cords are not visible. Looks like it's running too much toe in however!!

Most aftermarket discs seem to rust much faster then OE originals -but aren't these ridiculously expensive for the ION? If you're selling it anyway, stick what ever known name you can find at reasonable price....there's no come back on private sales.

Edit. OE discs £150. Each

1.6mm over 75% of the tread width is the rule, the tyre should pass but will get an advisory, the tyre also looks to have been run slightly underinflated.

[Mandrake]

That tyre will pass - 1.6mm min across the central 3/4, outside can be bald and it will pass (as long as the cords are not visible. Looks like it's running too much toe in however!!

Most aftermarket discs seem to rust much faster then OE originals -but aren't these ridiculously expensive for the ION? If you're selling it anyway, stick what ever known name you can find at reasonable price....there's no come back on private sales.

Edit. OE discs £150. Each

1.6mm over 75% of the tread width is the rule, the tyre should pass but will get an advisory, the tyre also looks to have been run slightly underinflated.

Nope, I've never run them under-inflated. The specified pressure is 36psi and I always run them at at least 38psi to firm them up a little as they are a bit softer than summer tyres.

The truth is that the front tyres on the Ion are very skinny compared to the rear tyres, on purpose to try to bias the RWD car towards safe understeer, so if you push it around the corners it will under-steer and scrub the edge of the tyre. However the wear in this case was probably caused by a slightly bent suspension arm which has since been replaced as the other front tyre isn't worn bald on the edge.

Also I notice that the Quatrac 5 has a more "rounded" shoulder profile in the narrower size than it does in the wider size at the rear, which is a much squarer profile. Even brand new there just isn't as much tread depth in the shoulders of the narrow version of the tyre as there is on the wider rear tyres.