Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[Mandrake]

Diesels get a protective undertray, many petrols don't.

No undertray on the V6 at all, and the oil filter is low down sticking out towards the oncoming road spray...

You would have thought that a Bosch item would have been reasonable quality, but how to tell?
At least you spotted it before it blew out. Maybe a blessing that the car wasn't taking you to the beach.

I was going to try a Valeo this time unfortunately the delivery time was a few days later so I ended up getting another Bosch, I guess the moral is just change it more often even if it's not doing a lot of miles!

Yes, I think I dodged a bullet there, we were set to take the car on a 100 mile round trip on the following day and I wasn't originally going to do the brakes for fear of something going wrong and putting the car off the road for that trip. I decided to be brave and do it anyway as I knew I could always fall back to the other car even though it would be a tight fit getting everyone and everything in (my mum is over staying as well) and the charging stops would be a pain. (But in the end the other car was fine for the trip, the charging stops weren't the hassle I was expecting and we did just squeeze everything in including a few purchases from a garden centre on the way back )

Had I not done the brakes and taken it for a test drive to bed the brakes in that bought the leak to my attention it would have been spewing oil out on the road until I noticed a burning smell on the exhaust or (hopefully ??!) a low oil warning light. Then it would have been a ruined day and recovery back home by the AA man, or recovery to a nearby garage for a new filter and oil change. Urgh! Bullet dodged thankfully!

I seem to be lucky in that regard, that I notice most faults at home or close to home. When the radiator sprung a leak a couple of years ago I noticed it while it was parked on the driveway rather than while I was out driving - particularly lucky when you consider the Mk1 V6 has no working low coolant level sensor/light due to a factory wiring design mistake !

[RichardW]

No low oil level light, first you know is when the oil pressure light comes on.....

I suspect that the oil filter is not a problem on regularly used cars as it will get hot enough to dry out, but salty condensation on a rarely used one will eat through in no time. You're just going to have to get out there and burn some more of that finest super unleaded

Good work on the brakes! As I recall, the problem with swapping the calipers on the previous one was that we couldn't get the pipes into the bleed holes - maybe someone had screwed down the bleed nipples too hard and crocked the hole for the pipe.

[xantia_v6]

No low oil level light, first you know is when the oil pressure light comes on.....

To be more precise, there is a low oil level warning, but the level is only measured when the ignition is switched on and before starting the engine (because the level drops when the engine is running). It is the same warning light as the low oil pressure warning, but it flashes if the level is measured as being low.

[Mandrake]

Good work on the brakes! As I recall, the problem with swapping the calipers on the previous one was that we couldn't get the pipes into the bleed holes - maybe someone had screwed down the bleed nipples too hard and crocked the hole for the pipe.

So do you think from memory the inner bore was too small to accept the pipe on the bleed nipple side on the other car ? I suppose as the taper is long enough the exact bore doesn't matter for the bleed nipple pin taper to seal but is critical for the pipe union side, too small and it won't go in...

For whatever reason the inner bore was the same on both sides on this car, the only difference was the tapered seat wasn't present on the side with the pipe. However the first time I tightened the bleed nipple up it created it's own tapered seat that was visually identical in size and shape to the original one. And I didn't have to do it tight - I used a regular tiny 8mm spanner just nipped up no firmer than you would normally nip a bleed nipple, so the alloy must be pretty soft!

I guess the takeaway for others is that you can swap the calipers between left and right on the car but before doing so first check to make sure that the inner bore on both halves is identical, as perhaps it isn't on all cars for some strange reason...I don't know why though, because keeping the inner bore diameter the same halves the number of spare parts SKU's to keep on the shelf!

By the way the rear pads on the car were original Citroen genuine ones and still had about 6mm of friction material left and looked in good order. The issue was the discs themselves were badly corroded and a bit warped, much like the front discs were, so the pads wouldn't have been biting onto a flat even surface. It took a while for them to bed in but they seem (in the short amount of driving they've done before the oil leak was discovered) to be working well now.

Hopefully they pass the MOT with flying colours as the rear brakes were a near fail last time.

[Mandrake]

Oil and filter change done tonight and the car is back on the road.

It might be my imagination but the engine seems quite a bit more sprightly after the oil change... There may be a plausible reason for that though, as I think the hydraulic valve lifters in this engine are quite sensitive to the condition of the oil. There were a couple of lifters that have been quite noisy for a while now, they both seem quiet after the oil change. A collapsed hydraulic lifter due to a sticking valve in the lifter can significantlly affect the valve timing, (the valve opens late and closes early compared to others, so has reduced dwell time) and the mechanical noise and vibration from it clattering away could potentially falsely trigger the knock sensor causing timing to be pulled out unnecessarily which would really kill the performance.

I also ordered some coolant, while not necessary to get the MOT I thought I better stop stalling and just get it done. Checking over the car for the MOT I spotted the rear right brake light is out and the exhaust leak at the inlet pipe of the rear muffler is quite noisy again.

I'm going to grab another one of those bandage repairs but this time I'm going to suppliment it with a strip cut out of the middle of a baked beans tin for a bit of reinforcement for the bandage to set over. Remarkably, despite looking pretty grotty the joint between the cat and centre silencer is not audibly leaking...

Once I quieten down that exhaust leak I think it's ready for the MOT, and not a moment too soon.

[RichardW]

Good luck with the MOT - take it for a good hard thrash first to work any potential gremlins out

[Mandrake]

Apparently no good news goes unpunished!

Tonight I had to do an unexpected 80 mile round trip mission of mercy and on the way back the gearbox decided to start playing up in ominous ways...

It has occasionally given the odd momentary "hiccup" or glitch but tonight it was suffering from intermittent but fairly frequent "flare up" when changing up from 2nd to 3rd or 3rd to 4th while accelerating which caused the engine revs to "flare up" about 500rpm higher for half a second before dropping to the new low rpm of the higher gear.

This is exactly one of the symptoms I started to see on the previous V6 before the gearbox finally let go... Unlike some earlier auto boxes there is no continuous drive engagement when changing gears - instead it drops the engine torque for about half a second by sending the engine ECU a signal to retard the timing, then simultaneously ramps up the pressure to the new clutches and ramps down the pressure to the old ones.

During this half second changeover period torque is severely limited to prevent this kind of flare up. When I got home I checked the oil level but it was fine - sitting on the top mark. (Probably because it was well above the 80C that you're supposed to check the level at) It certainly wasn't low anyway.

While I suppose it's theoretically possible that there is an electrical fault on the signal line between the gearbox and engine ECU's which controls this torque modulation during gearchange (and I have vague recollection of CitroJim fixing a problem on Trainman's V6 of this exact signal wire ?) I think it's unlikely.

So if a gearbox oil change doesn't help I think this could be the beginning of the end of the Xantia.

We were thinking of going on a long trip in a few weeks but if the problem is what I think it is I'm not sure I would trust the car on any long trip! The symptoms have appeared very quickly with little warning.

[Mandrake]

If I'm doing a gearbox oil change shortly (which I think I will have to) one other problem I want to address is that the Banjo joint on the side leaks slightly. Apparently not much because the level has not dropped in over a year on the dipstick but it's enough to make the joint wet with oil and the side of the gearbox oily all the time.

It first started leaking years ago when Mackies disconnected the Banjo to attach their flushing machine - they refitted the old badly pitted alloy washers on either side of the joint and of course it leaked quite badly. So at the time I fitted two new washers and it stopped leaking.... for a while...

Then it started to leak slightly. Some time later I think I replaced them a second time but it hasn't really helped. I assume the faces where the washers seal must be slightly pitted. I'm going to get another pair of washers and have another try but I think it may need a touch of some sort of sealant on the faces to get it fully leak free.

But what ? What kind of sealant can stand the heat and oil and seal between the faces and washers, without contaminating the oil stream of the gearbox, and not set hard enough that you can't remove the bolt without damaging the faces ? (EG probably not locktite ) Anyone have any ideas ? Crankcase sealant ? Only a very tiny amount would be needed.

[Stickyfinger]

I would find a suitable washer type, would steer very wide of sealant in that application.

[xantia_v6]

I would fit a Dowty washer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonded_seal and also avoid sealant.

[Mandrake]

I would fit a Dowty washer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonded_seal and also avoid sealant.

I like the idea of the dowty seal - I think that would work, but it would need to be exactly the right inner and outer diameters as the shoulder that seals is very narrow from memory. Can anyone decipher the exact washer dimensions from the part listing below ?

If not I suppose I could buy a couple of the original washers and measure them, I don't think I kept the old ones I replaced...

One other question is, how feasible is it to disconnect and reconnect the banjo while the gearbox still has a normal quantity of oil in it ? I assume that the sump level is below the banjo but there will be some oil from the heat exchanger lost, but not too much so I can just top it up afterwards ? I'm trying to decide whether I should try to perform the seal swap at the same time as the oil change while the oil is drained or to just do the oil change first and see if it actually helps with the gearbox operating symptoms and replace the washers afterwards, as the leak is very minor.

[Mandrake]

I would find a suitable washer type, would steer very wide of sealant in that application.

I've already replaced the washers once, possibly twice in the past but it always starts leaking again very slightly so I can only assume that the face on the gearbox side where the washer seals is slightly eroded. So I think something like the dowty seal with a built in gasket may be the only option.

[RichardW]

Bad news on the 'box if it is on the way out....

I would read that as 14.2mm ID x 17.9mm OD, the last part is the thickness, which doesn't quite make sense, as elsewhere for bolts this is given in mm which suggests a thickness of 15mm, but that can't be right! Perhaps it is 1.5mm. Anyway the bolt is M14, so an M14 Dowty washer will do - loads on e-bay.

[Mandrake]

Bad news on the 'box if it is on the way out....

I would read that as 14.2mm ID x 17.9mm OD, the last part is the thickness, which doesn't quite make sense, as elsewhere for bolts this is given in mm which suggests a thickness of 15mm, but that can't be right! Perhaps it is 1.5mm. Anyway the bolt is M14, so an M14 Dowty washer will do - loads on e-bay.

Thanks - it probably is 1.5mm, that sounds about right.

I guess another consideration when choosing a dowty washer is both the metal used for the metal part, and the rubber used for the rubber part - which needs to be something like viton for oil resistance.

The original washers are aluminium alloy same as the gearbox housing however I was able to successfully replace them with copper washers on the old V6 - although I only ever considered that a temporary fix...

[Mandrake]

Ordered a pack of 10 of these for a few quid:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bonded-Seal- ... sLFUDzLwJw

Doesn't say what metal it is but the rubber is oil safe nitrile so should be OK.