Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

[bobins]

I think the shoes are in the correct way 'round.

Brake shoe orientation - PSA fair usage

[Mandrake]

The shoes can't be inadvertently mixed up because the handbrake lever is attached to one of them. Although the handbrake lever can be removed from the shoe after removing a (difficult to remove!) clip, there is no post on the other shoe for the lever to go on to the wrong shoe.

[Mandrake]

So I got the "caliper repair kits" today, these include new seals for the piston (which I won't be using, but will be saving!) as well as new boots for the caliper pins and the infamous rubber bushing that goes over the bottom sleeve:

I wasn't expecting it to come with grease but it did! Two types. According to the instructions the translucent red grease is for the piston and the solid orange grease is for the slide pins. Only problem is to my eyes its the orange grease that looks transparent and the red one that looks solid, so I don't know which one I should be using. Confusing!!

Then there is the fact that I've already bought a tube of Permatex 20353 which is a high temperature, blue silicone based grease specifically designed for brake caliper slide pins which I was planning to use.

I like the look and consistency of the permatex stuff, I'm not so keen on the provided grease which looks and feels more like tomato sauce...

Given that I can't positively confirm which of the two provided greases I should use due to ambiguity in the description I think I'll just use the Permatex and save the other ones with the piston seals for a rainy day!

I think I know what the rubber bushing that goes over the bottom slide pin is for now - anti-squeal. The last week or so with this small rubber bush left out the front brakes have both been squealing like a banshee!! I don't think I've ever heard disc brakes squeal so much. Both calipers are also rattling a lot over broken surfaces which is to be expected when I had to leave the rubber bush out, and I also deliberately didn't put any grease on the pins - as I didn't have the right stuff at the time so didn't want to contaminate it further after cleaning it out.

If it's fine tomorrow I think I'll be out fitting the rubber bush and silicone grease to the slide pins snow or no snow as I can't take the embarrassment of a loud squeal at every stop in the city centre much longer...

[lexi]

Translucent red grease for the piston may be our old friend, red rubber grease, which is veg oil base I think.
http://www.redrubbergrease.com/

[Mandrake]

Translucent red grease for the piston may be our old friend, red rubber grease, which is veg oil base I think.
http://www.redrubbergrease.com/

Yes but which one - the top one or bottom one! The top one is the translucent one but it looks more orange than the bottom one to me...

[Mandrake]

Sunny day today so I thought I'd get the new rubber bushes fitted to the lower slide pins on the front brakes.

First I had to move the Xantia to make room to work, the idea being it has made a nice big patch of snow free ground... Unfortunately it hasn't been moved in over 3 weeks and was buried under about 8 inches of accumulated snow. Next problem was the battery was too flat to start the car. That's the second time I've left it too long between use recently. So on the charger it went while I set to work on the snow.... After 15 minutes of charging it started so I was able to get it moved out to the road and get started...

After comparing the supplied red grease and the Permatex stuff I had previously bought (which turns out to be green not blue as I originally said) I decided to use the Permatex, mainly because the Permatex is somewhat sticky/clingy whereas the red grease is not sticky, and I felt that it would stay in place better. I also wanted to put a reasonable amount in to stop the pins and therefore the calipers rattling as they rattle a lot when they're not greased.

Getting the new rubber bush onto the pin was quite a challenge - it's a lot harder than the mineral grease damaged originals, I could have put a little grease on it to slip it over the bump on the end of the pin but I was specifically trying to avoid getting any grease between the pin and the rubber which might cause it to slide back off again later and jam - which is what the original ones were doing. I wanted to put grease only on the outside of the rubber. It went on dry eventually with a bit of persuasion.

While I was there I noticed that the pads might have been contaminated with some of the copper grease I had used on the ear guides and on the back of the outside pad so I cleaned it all up, used brake cleaner on the discs and pads and also gave the pads a quick scuff on the concrete.

Everything went back together and I went for a test drive.

The good news - the caliper rattle is completely gone. It's unbelievable how much quieter and "tighter" the car feels and sounds when the calipers aren't rattling like crazy over every slightest imperfection in the road! I thought the "stickiness" of the grease I used would help prevent the pins from rattling in the holes even if there is still a little bit of slack. It's possible the pins are a bit worn and could do with replacing, but I can easily do that later if it seems necessary. For now the new bush and grease have done the trick.

Also the front brakes seem to be a lot "smoother" and more progressive in action now - again, probably because the pins are greased this time (I had to assemble them dry last time for lack of suitable grease) and the rubber bush is in place. The pins slide in and out very smoothly now and with the grease they don't really have any play now.

Now the bad news - fitting the new bushes and greasing the pins, and cleaning up the pads and discs has done absolutely nothing for the squeal. It still squeals like crazy under light, low speed braking, both forwards and backwards, and it's both front brakes squealing together in an annoying duet. Braking harder a few times seems to quieten it down for a while but the squeal on light, slow braking soon returns.

I'm not really sure what I should be doing to address this, whether they need a bit of hard bedding in, whether it will just go away eventually, or whether the pads are lemons and are always going to squeal...

Any suggestions on what to do about really squeally disc brakes other than trying a different brand of pads ?

I still have the original pads in the garage somewhere - I think they're Valeo, but I'd have to check.

[lexi]

Anti squeal shims on the pads? Lube the faces of AS shims, pads and caliper piston face? Lube the flat springs that, if there.......... sometimes hold pads steady? Did you check for wear lip on the disc and remove it? Maybe rough up the pads with 60 grit, to aid bedding in. Both discs squealing, point to a pad issue. Yet I have use the cheapest of pads and never had squeal.
Less there is something lacking in the batch of pads you have, material wise? That may be possible but most unlikely.
I would maybe persevere a wee bit more, before binning them.

[CitroJim]

At least you're one step forward Simon and I'm pleased all is good bar the squeal...

Does 'all good' also now apply to the rears too?

I used to have a sinker Xantia with very squealy rear discs... Never did find out why but it had an advantage (or disadvantage maybe) that those that knew me and my car could hear me coming from miles away! My arrival was positively confirmed by the hissing of the FDV

Anyway, having an otherwise silent 'lekky car squealing on braking can be seen as an advantage to pedestrians and cyclists - they know you're there A kind of an early warning...

[Mandrake]

Anti squeal shims on the pads?

There were/are no anti-squeal shims fitted, nor bias shims. Just piston and caliper fingers directly onto pad backs.

There is actually an optional "Disc pad noise prevention kit" available as a service part, which you can see as number 14 below:

I did consider getting this back in the beginning but decided against it due to the cost as it isn't cheap, and I had no inkling that it might be needed as it is clearly optional and not original factory fit. (I believe it's made by a 3rd party even though Peugeot stock it)

Ironically when I ordered the "Brake Caliper Repair kit" (seals) there was a mixup with the part number so what arrived was two sets of this noise prevention kit. So I got a look at them first hand before they were sent back - all they are is some thin metal plates the full size of the pads with what looks like a rubbery compound on the side that goes against the pad...high temperature material I'm sure not actual rubber! But it looked rubbery in appearance, and they certainly weren't like the typical bias plates which are just steel and a lot thicker. If money wasn't tight I probably would have kept the noise prevention kit as well...

Lube the faces of AS shims, pads and caliper piston face? Lube the flat springs that, if there.......... sometimes hold pads steady?

Did that initially - squealing really bad, when I had the pads back out again a few days ago I found the grease I'd put between the caliper fingers and the outer pad was excessive and had managed to work its way into places it shouldn't, including on the edge of the lining material! So I cleaned it right back, cleaned the pad material and discs and just left a little grease at the pad ears - squealing was no better and no worse after doing this.

Did you check for wear lip on the disc and remove it?

Brand new disc remember ? No wear lip in it yet I would hope. The edge was perfectly smooth before fitting.

Maybe rough up the pads with 60 grit, to aid bedding in. Both discs squealing, point to a pad issue. Yet I have use the cheapest of pads and never had squeal.
Less there is something lacking in the batch of pads you have, material wise? That may be possible but most unlikely.
I would maybe persevere a wee bit more, before binning them.

Although it was initially still bad after cleaning and reassembling things on Saturday it has gradually improved a bit since then - I think part of the issue may be my driving style. Because it's an EV I tend to drive to maximise regenerative braking efficiency.

This means slowing early and gradually at stops and avoiding the brake pedal as much as I can (which is pretty easy actually as you can slow at a decent rate just lifting the throttle) which means the friction brakes especially the front hardly get used, and it probably isn't enough to bed in brand new discs and pads over time even though I did go for a test drive on the day I fitted them where I gave them plenty of strong use.

For about the last 3 days I've changed my driving style back to a more conventional style where I brake later and harder without any consideration for whether I'm making good use of regeneration or not, in essence working the normal friction brakes a lot more... and the squealing seems to have largely subsided. The left caliper isn't squealing at all now, the right one has a slight squeal when first moving off in the morning but after a couple of applications its mostly quiet. They're not squealing in reverse now either.

So maybe I need to drive in a way that uses the brakes a bit harder for a while for them to fully settle in. The question is whether returning to a light braking style of driving will cause the squeal to return later, as I don't want to continue driving in a way that cuts my range significantly.

At least you're one step forward Simon and I'm pleased all is good bar the squeal...

Does 'all good' also now apply to the rears too?

The rear brakes still have a mind of their own - they've been mostly OK the last few days without any issues, but at random the rear left starts grabbing again.

I think the shoes are still getting hung up on the back rests sometimes on that rear left brake, I've even heard a loud "click" come from it when I pressed the brake hard yesterday which might go along with the idea of the shoe trying to jump across the wear mark. (I can't image the auto-adjuster would have moved yet again)

I'm just waiting for some good weather to come along to have another go at it.

Anyway, having an otherwise silent 'lekky car squealing on braking can be seen as an advantage to pedestrians and cyclists - they know you're there A kind of an early warning...

It was enough to cause pedestrians to turn around to see who the heck was making that awful noise. Thank goodness it is abating now...

[Mandrake]

Ah it never rains but pours.

After a lot of flooding recently I noticed that the gear lever in the Ion was getting a little stiff, especially towards the ends of its travel in Drive and Park. It has a system that is very similar to what you'll find on a normal auto box - the gear lever has a bowden cable that runs right back to the gearbox and there is a switch to detect what position the gear lever is in. As it's rear wheel drive the cable and lever on the side of the gearbox is very exposed to road salt under the back of the car...

There are no gears to be changed - the only reason the cable goes to the gearbox at all is to activate the parking pawl in park mode, other than that it just has to operate the switch so the ECU knows whether you're in Park, Reverse, Neutral or Drive...

The last couple of days I've noticed the general warning light appearing on the dashboard along with the gear lever symbol (P, D, R etc) flashing. I knew pretty much right away that this would be related to the gear lever getting stiff, as this is a known problem on these cars. In fact when I test drove two sister Ion's the one I chose not to buy had a very stiff gear lever while this one was nice and free and has remained that way until a few days ago where I think driving through some flooding might have splashed salty water all over the mechanism on the outside of the gearbox.

I chucked it on the Lexia to be certain and sure enough - it was complaining about coherency problems with the gear lever switch. It turns out that there is both a primary and redundant set of switch contacts for the gear lever, and the error was that the primary contacts were reporting park while the redundant set were reporting reverse.

I was able to reproduce this error by deliberately pushing it part way between reverse and park and holding it there - with the Lexia reporting P for primary contacts and R for secondary contacts, and triggering the warning light and setting a fault code if it was held that way for more than a few seconds. Push it slightly further and both read P as they should.

So I'm thinking that the switch itself is probably ok and the stiff cable is preventing it from being pushed all the way and occasionally holding it in a position where the two sets of contacts disagree about the park position, that then sets an error code. Fortunately the car still seems to drive and work fine (for now!) thanks to having redundant contacts.

It has a bowden cable operating a lever arm that sticks out of the side of the gearbox under the rear differential - it's all very exposed to water and road salt, what's the best grease to use here that will be extra sticky and stay in place ?

I'm not sure if the switch unit is mounted on the gearbox as well or whether that is in the centre console. I have a feeling it is on the side of the gearbox as well but I haven't checked yet.

PS the brakes are almost silent now except for a slight momentary squeal sometimes when braking in reverse. I think they just needed to be used a bit harder for a while instead of being too easy on them!

[CitroJim]

Good news on the brakes Simon

I hope the gear cable and mechanism is easy to get to... I had a similar problem on an XM and the cable got stiffer and stiffer over time.. To get at the mechanism and/or to swap the cable required the exhaust to be dropped At least you won't have that problem!!!

I'm trusting a dismantle, a good clean and lubricate will resolve the issue...

This little car is certainly keeping you amused! More than I thought any electric car possibly could...

[Mandrake]

Good news on the brakes Simon

Yes, they feel very good now too - sensitive and responsive as they should. The rear left brake problem is in remission at the moment but I'm sure it is still there lurking and will need addressing!

I hope the gear cable and mechanism is easy to get to... I had a similar problem on an XM and the cable got stiffer and stiffer over time.. To get at the mechanism and/or to swap the cable required the exhaust to be dropped At least you won't have that problem!!!

To get at the end of it where it needs lubricating is dead simple - put the rear up onto axle stands and it's right there out in the open on the side of the differential! I'm not sure how much work it would be if the cable needed replacing though...

I'm trusting a dismantle, a good clean and lubricate will resolve the issue...

Hopefully too much dismantling wont be needed! I suspect that salt water has just got into the end of the bowden cable - prior to a few days ago it has been perfectly free moving in the year since I've had the car. I'm hoping lubrication is all it needs.

This little car is certainly keeping you amused! More than I thought any electric car possibly could...

It is keeping me amused yes, but one of the reasons I post about it on here is to show those nervous about EV's that so far at least, everything it has needed doing is "normal" car stuff that I can DIY.

It's had no EV specific problems at all, touch wood. It's all been tyres, brakes, gear lever bowden cable etc... and I have a pair of drop links waiting for a sunny day and a visit to Mr A Grinder to fit.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I'm doing well over 1000 miles a month driving it day in day out. I've done over 12,000 miles in it already since last March!

Given that I think it is doing admirably and apart from these pesky brakes which I now seem to have just about sorted has given me very little trouble and apart from a puncture has never let me down on the road either.

[Skull]

Well 12,000 miles is a great saving already Good to hear that you've resolved the brake / vibration issues ... I've been looking for a similar model but so far there's not a lot around second-hand saw a Cat C (C-Zero) one advertised but nowhere near me and was still 4K ....

[Mandrake]

Well 12,000 miles is a great saving already Good to hear that you've resolved the brake / vibration issues ... I've been looking for a similar model but so far there's not a lot around second-hand saw a Cat C (C-Zero) one advertised but nowhere near me and was still 4K ....

Yeah the vibration seems to be gone now too. £4k is a good price - they seem to have gone up in price since I got my due to increased interest after the government announced 2040 deadline. I only paid £4200 for mine and could actually sell it at a profit at the moment as all the ones of a similar milage are going for over £5k I got it just at the right time I think...

You got me thinking about the petrol vs charging cost over 12k miles so I thought I'd work it out.

My yearly average consumption for the Ion is probably about 4 miles / kWh - it drops as low as 3.3 in winter with the heater blasting and goes as high as about 4.5 in summer with no heater so lets call it 4. That means I've charged 3,000kWh over that time, and if we assume that all of that charging was done at home at 12.3p/kWh that works out to £369 over about 10 months to go 12k miles. Some of that charging will have been using rapid chargers which are currently free in Scotland, checking my CPS account says I've charged 178kWh on free public chargers, so I've only driven about 712 miles on public charging equating to a saving of £22. Not surprising when I rarely drive out of range of charging at home.

If I were to try to do that 12k miles in my 20MPG Xantia V6 that works out to 2727 litres of fuel, and at 132.5p/litre for super unleaded is £3614 So a "fuelling" cost reduction of £3245 in under a year vs the Xantia. Add another £250 saving per year due to not having to pay for tax. Of course if it was a 40MPG Diesel it would be £1807 for the year, but still a saving of £1438, plus up to £250 for tax depending on car.

To be fair - I was NOT driving 12k a year in the Xantia (I could never afford it) we were catching the bus and train instead for most of the journey, but they are also very expensive, with £684 a year spent on the bus for Sara and £1284 spent on the train for me! I was also still having to drive a shorter distance in the Xantia before getting the train, which would have added up to 4000 miles a year or about £1200 a year for the commute alone.

It's actually cheaper for us to drive the Ion 38 miles a day and pay £70 a month in parking near work, than to drive the Xantia 16 miles a day and pay for train and bus. So much cheaper that I can pay £119 a month to pay off the Ion and still end up over £100 more in pocket every month despite owning two cars instead of one.

Crazy when you think about it. For our very specific set of circumstances the Ion is quite literally a free car due to the low per mile cost, but only because I managed to buy it so cheaply in the first place and because public transport for us was so expensive.

[Skull]

Simon

Those sums are very tempting for my situation - Xantia diesel @ 6,000 miles per year mostly town trips below 10 miles so only average 40 mpg with no day to day parking costs.

You seem to have timed the move to electric just right, we normally only run one car full time so it's certainly an attractive option for me.

My quest continues ....