Simon's new Xantia V6 and Leaf blog

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daviemck2006
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by daviemck2006 »

One of these sounds as if it would be ideal for my pizza deliveries. Espacially as there is a free recharge point along the road from the shop while i am waiting!

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Zelandeth
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Zelandeth »

Sounds very like the regen system in the ADL Enviro 350H buses. Unless you were crawling there you generally didn't see the friction brakes coming into play unless you were applying 30% or so braking force. You could tell this both from the sound from the motors and the lack of the general racket that you usually get from the brakes (though granted, being a brand new bus rather than a clapped out training vehicle or track bus with >700K miles on might also have played a part!). I'd have liked to spend a bit more timing driving one to get used to it, but sadly only had a chance for a half hour sneaky shot one afternoon!

The electric 106 as I recall behaved in a pretty similar way - though the "off throttle regen" on that was quite a lot more pronounced from what I recall.

The biggest thing I remember about them though was the ability to move off from a standing start both mind bendingly rapidly, yet also smoothly. The old B10BLEs could shift if you put your foot down, but the drive system got pretty obviously flustered when you did this and it generally wasn't very dignified! The hybrids (which had an all electric drive system) really were in another league in that regard.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Mandrake »

Zelandeth wrote:Sounds very like the regen system in the ADL Enviro 350H buses. Unless you were crawling there you generally didn't see the friction brakes coming into play unless you were applying 30% or so braking force. You could tell this both from the sound from the motors and the lack of the general racket that you usually get from the brakes (though granted, being a brand new bus rather than a clapped out training vehicle or track bus with >700K miles on might also have played a part!). I'd have liked to spend a bit more timing driving one to get used to it, but sadly only had a chance for a half hour sneaky shot one afternoon!

The electric 106 as I recall behaved in a pretty similar way - though the "off throttle regen" on that was quite a lot more pronounced from what I recall.
I noticed when poking around with Diagbox that one of the things the EV-ECU (which is responsible for overall control of the drive train) measures is brake pedal depression. It's not just a pressed/not pressed switch though, it measures brake pedal movement exactly in millimetres! This is clearly how it knows to start applying additional regen when the brake pedal is pressed lightly, and before the vacuum servo brakes start operating.

At speeds above about 45mph if you lift right off the throttle you get full regen without touching the brake pedal at all, and it slows you quite rapidly, whereas between about 10-40mph you get about half maximum regen and you have to touch the brake lightly to get the full amount. I actually really like driving with regen now (so called one pedal driving) it just makes so much sense. It's a bit like driving a manual petrol in a low gear with lots of engine braking when you lift off, except without the noise or fuel waste. Great for feathering the speed of the car around a corner without jumping between brake pedal and accelerator all the time.

I drove the Xantia yesterday for the first time in over a week and whilst I really enjoyed that too, I missed the feeling of regen!! :lol:

I'm tempted to perform the modification that fits the Misubishi I-MiEV gear shifter plate to the Ion - it unlocks the two extra modes including increased single pedal regen, but the plate itself is about £70 for a piece of plastic (!) and I'm reluctant to make such a visible modification when it still has two more yearly dealer services for the extended battery warranty to go...
The biggest thing I remember about them though was the ability to move off from a standing start both mind bendingly rapidly, yet also smoothly. The old B10BLEs could shift if you put your foot down, but the drive system got pretty obviously flustered when you did this and it generally wasn't very dignified! The hybrids (which had an all electric drive system) really were in another league in that regard.
One significant minus with the Ion is that you don't get instant off the line torque like most other EV's. :( For whatever reason, known only to a Mitsubishi engineer somewhere, they have programmed a deliberate "acceleration ramp" into the throttle response from stationary. This means even if you floor it from a stationary start, the initial takeoff is very leisurely until you get to about 15mph then it really picks up.

If you floor it at 20mph it pushes you back in the seat hard. In fact anywhere from about 15mph to 40mph the throttle response is instant and strong. It would have been SO nice to have that from stationary but it is programmed out! After getting used to having to anticipate this slow acceleration buildup from stationary (at roundabouts etc) it was quite a shock to get back into the Xantia which launches from a standstill like a rocket ship and beats it off the line hands down! :twisted: And yet on the other hand if both cars are doing 20mph and the Xantia has changed up to a higher gear if you stomp on the pedal on both cars the Ion wins easily, at least until 40mph - instant full torque and push you back in the seat acceleration while the Xantia is either picking up more slowly or fumbling to kick down before it pulls away.

Such a shame that they artificially limited it as it would have put a lot of cars to shame if the full 180N/m was unleashed from 0mph... (in theory the ECU could be reprogrammed to eliminate this "feature", but its well beyond my pay grade to figure out!)

The Xantia felt really strange after only a week driving a different car - the whole driving position feels really low in the Xantia like my bum is almost dragging on the ground and I can't see over the waistline of the car. :lol: The drivers seat is also supremely soft and comfy compared to the hard and rather uncomfortable seat in the Ion. (Which I have already had to tweak by putting washers under the front end to tilt it back a bit and adding a padded car seat cover) The ride of the Xantia is also exceptionally smooth and stable compared to the Ion - I've always said it, but you have to drive something else for a while to truly appreciate Hydro-pneumatic! :shock:

The steering and brake pedal on the Xantia also both feel very heavy and not as light and responsive as the Ion. On the other hand the acceleration and cornering power of the Xantia wins hands down, but you'd expect it to with 3x the horsepower, much larger tyres and better suspension! I still enjoyed driving the Ion as soon as I got back into it though - they each have their charms and I'm very glad I'm keeping the Xantia too. :)
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Hell Razor5543
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

The reason for the "acceleration ramp" is probably the elderly driver. If it accelerated too quickly it could cause issues.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Mandrake »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:The reason for the "acceleration ramp" is probably the elderly driver. If it accelerated too quickly it could cause issues.
Perhaps so, and I don't mind a small ramp to help avoid silly wheel spin, but it is really excessive. In fact up a hill with a load in the car it can take a few seconds to pick up enough speed to accelerate to a speed where the power output is allowed to increase! And yet flooring it from 20 up the same hill it will pull instantly and strongly.

As far as I know no other EV has an acceleration ramp like this. Most of them give you pretty much full torque available (subject to traction control) from stationary.
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Mandrake »

One other thing I found when poking around with Diagbox is the amount of power that the heating and air conditioning draw from the battery is shown.

Turns out that the heating on full blast draws 5kW! :shock: Given that the battery is only 16kWh in total and the car uses approximately 250Wh/mile to travel along the road, its easy to see how it can sap range. Fortunately the heater does't run at full blast all the time, even if you turn the knob right up.

It doesn't have automatic temperature regulation of the cabin temperature, what the temperature knob setting does do is regulate the flow temperature of the water through the heater matrix. So it runs at full blast initially but as the water warms up it throttles the element back to maintain a constant flow temperature through the matrix.

The A/C on the other hand uses much less power - about 1/10th as much in fact. Peak power usage with the compressor running at full speed was 500 watts, with it averaging more like 200 watts. It also seems to modulate both on and off and modulate its speed to achieve an evaporator temperature set by the knob.

With 17 degrees and sunshine yesterday the A/C got some good use and while the heater is a bit slow and energy hungry the A/C cools very quickly and doesn't impact on the range much at all, and being able to run it with the car stopped and no engine idling is nice. :) Now if only it had a heat pump...
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by myglaren »

cables.jpg
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by harryp »

don't forget to reverse your battery cables
absotulety priceless :wink: :rofl2: :rofl2:
Must try that on someone sometime :shock:
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

My Mums' Stepmother was completely useless where it came to cars (this was about 40 years ago). Somehow she managed to drive her car (an Anglia, IIRC) for 6 months with the battery connected up the wrong way around. Nobody could explain why things had not gone wrong. After that my Mum re-painted the engine bay, colour coding the various parts (green for oil, blue for coolant, and so on). As Rosalie was a very good artist (her works made money) this idea worked well.
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CitroJim
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:My Mums' Stepmother was completely useless where it came to cars (this was about 40 years ago). Somehow she managed to drive her car (an Anglia, IIRC) for 6 months with the battery connected up the wrong way around.
Back in the day on those cars James, it was easy to reverse their polarity... No electronics you see :)

The task involved flashing the dynamo to reverse it's residual magnetism and swapping the coil connections over...

By accident it must have happened all by itself in the case of your mum's stepmum James... She obviously had no wireless in the car as she'd have known pretty quickly with smoke and nasty smells......

The polarity change was often done to change from positive to negative earth on the acquisition of a negative earth only car wireless...

Many of those wirelesses I fixed as a teenager at my Saturday job following installation in a car with the opposite polarity... Used to fry them quite well but again, just being comprised of a few germanium transistors it was not too hard to get them working again.. Often many of the transistors survived...
Mandrake wrote:One other thing I found when poking around with Diagbox is the amount of power that the heating and air conditioning draw from the battery is shown.

Turns out that the heating on full blast draws 5kW! :shock:
Gosh! In the confines of a small car that's enough to fry you...

Extend the range by fitting an auxiliary diesel-powered heater like an Erberspacher perhaps ;)
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: Gosh! In the confines of a small car that's enough to fry you...
Not really Jim! The heater is what I would consider adequate but a "bit weak" even on maximum temperature. It certainly doesn't put out anywhere near the heat of the Xantia heater turned up that's for sure. I think you'll find the heater output in a Xantia is more equivalent to 10kW or more...
Extend the range by fitting an auxiliary diesel-powered heater like an Erberspacher perhaps ;)
Already been done before! :rofl2:

http://kiwiev.com/installing-a-diesel-parking-heater/

I have no such plans however....not only does it feel hypocritical to burn Diesel, it would take up precious space in the car! (UK winters aren't nearly as cold as the Slovak Republic so I think I'll be OK ;) )
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote:Already been done before! :rofl2:

http://kiwiev.com/installing-a-diesel-parking-heater/
What an excellent article Simon, enjoyed that immensely... Shame it took up so much boot room really but the range savings are most impressive..

Could it not perhaps have gone in the front under the bonnet or is that chock-full of stuff already?
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

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Mandrake wrote:I'm tempted to perform the modification that fits the Misubishi I-MiEV gear shifter plate to the Ion - it unlocks the two extra modes including increased single pedal regen, but the plate itself is about £70 for a piece of plastic (!) and I'm reluctant to make such a visible modification when it still has two more yearly dealer services for the extended battery warranty to go...
Can't you just fit it, then 'un-fit' it for the service, and re-fit it afterwards?
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CitroJim
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by CitroJim »

Or could you fabricate one Simon? It may not look standard but it would be functional and a lot cheaper...
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Re: Simon's new Xantia V6 and Peugeot Ion blog

Post by elma »

I can put you in touch with a 3d printer if thats a viable option. I've not seen the part so have no idea.

Speaking of that, did you get the file for the Activa bits you wanted printed Jim?