Brand New CITROEN DS5 with miss-coloured bumper and steering

[Hell Razor5543]

Fingers crossed!

[Jodyone]

I had been following your Pistonheads thread. I admire your tenacity- lets hope it's paid off!

[Old-Guy]

In these sorts of circumstances, Finance Companies ALWAYS claim that defective goods are nothing to do with them. Not so - when lawyers get involved they soon drop this pretence. It may not be very fair to them, but the law has been clear on this for decades - the finance company is jointly responsible - indeed I have seen situations where it becomes customer versus finance company because the vendor has gone under. I've seen a Finance Company fight right to the 'door of the court' but cave in before the hearing started because they knew they were bound to lose because the product was demonstrably defective even though all they have done is provide the finance.

I agree that it sounds very much like 'your' DS5 had a front-end collision that was badly repaired. If so, the car should never have been offered for sale as a new car.

Citroen and the dealer deserve all the bad publicity they get over this.

Here's wishing you an early resolution - don't forget to demand your expenses, but keep them reasonable. In law you can only claim for financial loss/outlay - not for wasted time unless you can prove actual loss of earnings.

In my experience the key to success in disputes is to be rational, reasonable, and VERY persistent.

[Mandrake]

I agree that it sounds very much like 'your' DS5 had a front-end collision that was badly repaired. If so, the car should never have been offered for sale as a new car.

What I don't understand is that the car apparently had 3 miles on the clock (not 30 or 300!) at the time of purchase (I hope the OP took a photo of that! ) so if the car had had a collision it must have the guy driving it off the car transport lorry who crashed it while it was being delivered to the dealer!! (Or maybe it literally fell off the back of a lorry, nose first )

Furthermore if we accept that it was damaged during delivery to the dealer, it means that after initial remedial work was done to repair the damage (new poorly matching bumpers etc) the car was NOT road tested before sale to check for mechanical damage.

Any car that had had impact damage that could have potentially damaged the suspension, upset the wheel alignment etc could NOT possibly have been adequately road tested with less than 3 miles driving between the time when the damage was done and the car was sold to the customer. That's hardly enough distance to get to the nearest motorway and back let alone do a thorough test drive at 70mph to make sure everything was ok. (After a visual inspection)

I know if I was in the situation of checking for damage on something I was about to sell as new, a visual inspection of suspension components would not be sufficient, I'd damn well be taking it for a good long test run to make sure the car felt and handled right as well.

So I would argue that if the dealer repaired delivery damage (and probably only the superficial part of the damage, eg bumpers) and then sold it with less than 3 miles on the clock they were being negligent in insufficiently testing the car after damage and repairs, especially given it was being sold as a new car which shouldn't have ANY damage and repairs before sale not divulged to the customer.

Either that or they wound the clock back...

[Jodyone]

so if the car had had a collision it must have the guy driving it off the car transport lorry who crashed it while it was being delivered to the dealer!!

That's pretty much the implication, I think, or even before, from reading the Pistonheads thread. Cars are handled by a few parties before they make it to customers and it isn't in the direct interest of any of those parties to let on if something got bumped. I'm inclined to view all this stuff sceptically (everyone's an expert!), but it makes a lot of sense. Potentially, dealers don't even know if damage/remedial repair has happened en route to them. Obviously, in this case, all conjecture - but that bumper!

[demag]

Looking at this incident and my experience with the Berlingo and other cases I have heard about as well, Citroen as a family oriented caring company is long long gone. Years ago it used to be Peugeot who took all the flak about being uncaring and not bothering about the customer. These days look on any owners forum and believe me every car company is the same. Have a look on the Kia forum about the diesel Venga or the Renault forum about the electronics on the Scenic. These are big multinational corporations worth billions and you are one person trying to get something put right. They will use every trick in the book including downright lies not to honour their contract with you. And there must be many people who cave in and lose thousands because they think they can't win. If you have a complaint and you know it is valid and you are right, collect ALL the evidence, use email or letter so you create a paper trail but DON'T let the b*st*ds beat you down!

[Richard_C]

The dealership culture makes a huge difference, in most I suspect the sales side is 'sell and forget', the salesperson gets their commission and moves on to the next customer, that's the target driven culture. In most cases they get more commission for selling you the finance than they do for selling you the car. The service side have no real interest in mopping up after them. Have you actually spoken to the dealer principal, the person in charge of the whole thing?

I guess if they had a one off car at a good price it will cost them to offer a replacement.

The only people who can put pressure on the dealership are the manufacturer/distributor who may want to protect their reputation, the finance house who don't want the hassle and probably do loads of deals with them, and the press/public opinion.

If it doesn't work out for you I suggest a look at the Financial Conduct Authority website, or call their consumer helpline on 0300 500 8082 as a starting point. They will give sound advice on any claim you might have against the finance provider, and may take a dim view of their initial refusal to engage in the matter. You still have to complain to the finance provider but if they then fail to respond as you wished you can take it to the financial ombudsman.

There was a recent case of a computer sold by PC world returned as faulty and there was a judgement in favour of the consumer in a dispute about continuing payments to the finance co. I don't remember the details but you should be able to google for it. It's high risk though the case took so long the consumers credit rating was damaged for some years. If you do end up returning the car make sure the finance deal is properly terminated. In his case the company insisted he paid up for a year or 3 even though he had returned the goods.

I do hope you get it sorted and end up with a car you enjoy owning. You don't want to feel PI...d off every time you get in it.

[hawaiianblue]

I agree that it sounds very much like 'your' DS5 had a front-end collision that was badly repaired. If so, the car should never have been offered for sale as a new car.

What I don't understand is that the car apparently had 3 miles on the clock (not 30 or 300!) at the time of purchase (I hope the OP took a photo of that! ) so if the car had had a collision it must have the guy driving it off the car transport lorry who crashed it while it was being delivered to the dealer!! (Or maybe it literally fell off the back of a lorry, nose first )

Furthermore if we accept that it was damaged during delivery to the dealer, it means that after initial remedial work was done to repair the damage (new poorly matching bumpers etc) the car was NOT road tested before sale to check for mechanical damage.

Any car that had had impact damage that could have potentially damaged the suspension, upset the wheel alignment etc could NOT possibly have been adequately road tested with less than 3 miles driving between the time when the damage was done and the car was sold to the customer. That's hardly enough distance to get to the nearest motorway and back let alone do a thorough test drive at 70mph to make sure everything was ok. (After a visual inspection)

I know if I was in the situation of checking for damage on something I was about to sell as new, a visual inspection of suspension components would not be sufficient, I'd damn well be taking it for a good long test run to make sure the car felt and handled right as well.

So I would argue that if the dealer repaired delivery damage (and probably only the superficial part of the damage, eg bumpers) and then sold it with less than 3 miles on the clock they were being negligent in insufficiently testing the car after damage and repairs, especially given it was being sold as a new car which shouldn't have ANY damage and repairs before sale not divulged to the customer.

Either that or they wound the clock back...

PSA (Gefco) have a PDI facility at Sheerness docks, where all their vehicles are imported. The fit a lot of the 'factory' options and some of the dealer options to new cars, it means the customer gets their new car faster as they can add the features to one that's in stock rather than wait for it to be built.
They also have a full body shop there, I delivered to them once, to see 3 C1's being repaired, one was having the front done, another the back end and then a third having both ends. Turns out one of them didn't have the handbrake on when put on the ferry so it was rolling backwards and forwards for the whole crossing. They repair the cars and then no doubt they go to a dealer as a demonstrator before being sold with a few miles on it.

[mbrad26]

Looking at this incident and my experience with the Berlingo and other cases I have heard about as well, Citroen as a family oriented caring company is long long gone. Years ago it used to be Peugeot who took all the flak about being uncaring and not bothering about the customer. These days look on any owners forum and believe me every car company is the same. Have a look on the Kia forum about the diesel Venga or the Renault forum about the electronics on the Scenic. These are big multinational corporations worth billions and you are one person trying to get something put right. They will use every trick in the book including downright lies not to honour their contract with you. And there must be many people who cave in and lose thousands because they think they can't win. If you have a complaint and you know it is valid and you are right, collect ALL the evidence, use email or letter so you create a paper trail but DON'T let the b*st*ds beat you down!

Yes. I have, what I believe, a very strong collection of evidence from still pictures, video, mail correspondence, emails, phone conversions records with the Dealership staff (including the group Manager), Finance Company, Citroen UK Customer Service, Citroen UK Head Office, Financial Ombudsman Service etc. Also kept a detailed Journal since the day I took delivery of the car 21.03.2014

[mbrad26]

The dealership culture makes a huge difference, in most I suspect the sales side is 'sell and forget', the salesperson gets their commission and moves on to the next customer, that's the target driven culture. In most cases they get more commission for selling you the finance than they do for selling you the car. The service side have no real interest in mopping up after them. Have you actually spoken to the dealer principal, the person in charge of the whole thing?

I guess if they had a one off car at a good price it will cost them to offer a replacement.

The only people who can put pressure on the dealership are the manufacturer/distributor who may want to protect their reputation, the finance house who don't want the hassle and probably do loads of deals with them, and the press/public opinion.

If it doesn't work out for you I suggest a look at the Financial Conduct Authority website, or call their consumer helpline on 0300 500 8082 as a starting point. They will give sound advice on any claim you might have against the finance provider, and may take a dim view of their initial refusal to engage in the matter. You still have to complain to the finance provider but if they then fail to respond as you wished you can take it to the financial ombudsman.

There was a recent case of a computer sold by PC world returned as faulty and there was a judgement in favour of the consumer in a dispute about continuing payments to the finance co. I don't remember the details but you should be able to google for it. It's high risk though the case took so long the consumers credit rating was damaged for some years. If you do end up returning the car make sure the finance deal is properly terminated. In his case the company insisted he paid up for a year or 3 even though he had returned the goods.

I do hope you get it sorted and end up with a car you enjoy owning. You don't want to feel PI...d off every time you get in it.

If it wasn't for the social media platforms like FB, Twitter and forums, like this one - I would of been in deep ****. They don't want to hear about their mistakes, is like you owe them for the honour of selling you a crap car - unbelievable. And I'm not a singular case - there are many other customers in the same situation as I am who just gave up- not only Citroen's customers but BMW, Mercedes, Mazda, Nissan, Porsche you name it.

I read about that case - is someone from Scotland who returned the PC and was blacklisted and he couldn't take credit again. The all story spanned aver 16 years or so - a sad story. An example of what this big corporations can do to the average Joe.

[mbrad26]

Hi guys

Citroen Spain has given a big like to my story on their FB page !!!

https://www.facebook.com/citroen.es" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mbrad26]

Hi guys.

Some little news.

I have an email saying that tomorrow I will, hopefully, receive more details about a possible happy ending.

[Old-Guy]

What I don't understand is that the car apparently had 3 miles on the clock (not 30 or 300!) at the time of purchase (I hope the OP took a photo of that! ) so if the car had had a collision it must have the guy driving it off the car transport lorry who crashed it while it was being delivered to the dealer!! (Or maybe it literally fell off the back of a lorry, nose first )

Furthermore if we accept that it was damaged during delivery to the dealer, it means that after initial remedial work was done to repair the damage (new poorly matching bumpers etc) the car was NOT road tested before sale to check for mechanical damage.

Any car that had had impact damage that could have potentially damaged the suspension, upset the wheel alignment etc could NOT possibly have been adequately road tested with less than 3 miles driving between the time when the damage was done and the car was sold to the customer. That's hardly enough distance to get to the nearest motorway and back let alone do a thorough test drive at 70mph to make sure everything was ok. (After a visual inspection)

I know if I was in the situation of checking for damage on something I was about to sell as new, a visual inspection of suspension components would not be sufficient, I'd damn well be taking it for a good long test run to make sure the car felt and handled right as well.

So I would argue that if the dealer repaired delivery damage (and probably only the superficial part of the damage, eg bumpers) and then sold it with less than 3 miles on the clock they were being negligent in insufficiently testing the car after damage and repairs, especially given it was being sold as a new car which shouldn't have ANY damage and repairs before sale not divulged to the customer.

New vehicles leave the factory with the odometer set to minus X miles. X varies on manufacturer, factory, model and destination and is guestimated to allow for all the miles involved in delivery, PDI etc. I have collected a new vehicle (PDIed and registered) from a Ford main dealer with as few as -12 miles (that's MINUS 12) on the clock and about 2 litres in the tank; it's a bit surreal watching the clock 'unwind as you drive.

Either that or they wound the clock back...

Supposed to be impossible - hence setting the miles to a minus figure during manufacture.

[qprdude]

Also, as regards the "only three miles on the clock" so they couldn't have tested the car after the repair? I can't see where they have admitted to carrying out a repair, or have I missed something?

The guy who had the problem with the computer was from Aberdeen. He bought the computer from PC world who described it as internet ready with inbuilt modem (yes, I know, old technology) They admitted that it wasn't as described and took it back but the finance company insisted that he continue paying. The local court said he didn't, and awarded £116,000 damages .The finance company appealed and a higher court in Edinburgh found in their favour. (Madness, from the courts that are supposed to protect us). He appealed to the Supreme court in London, who finally agreed that the clowns in Edinburgh were wrong. The guy took 16 years to get justice and was awarded £8000. Probably about a 20th of his outlay.
The moral? Don't ever trust the courts to have a clue about justice, they interpret the law as they see fit. Justice, and the Law are not directly related.

[Mandrake]

Also, as regards the "only three miles on the clock" so they couldn't have tested the car after the repair? I can't see where they have admitted to carrying out a repair, or have I missed something?

Of course they're not going to admit that the car required repairs before being sold as new...

We can only infer it from the mismatched bumpers and obvious suspension/tracking faults that are too much of a coincidence for a brand new car... Unless it was assembled late on a Friday afternoon or the day before a strike I suppose...