HELP! 1.9TD cambelt snapped

[602]

Hi everyone, I've been a member for a while now and have followed a lot of posts, but haven't yet had the need for any help and haven't got the level of knowledge others seem to have in order to help others... and my first post is a big ask!

Our beloved Xantia ('96 1.9TD) has run perfectly since buying it from an engineer who had fitted a new clutch, brakes, cambelt and so on and had intended keeping it for ages, but had received a car with a new job. It had also had a new heater matrix and other bits which cause problems as the cars get older.

So I was devastated when it broke its cambelt, as you can imagine, only 4,000 miles or so since it was fitted. The car went like a dream - it was really quick and really smooth. Is there anyone in the North East (I'm on the edge of the Yorkshire Wolds) with mechanical ability and knowledge of these engines who could help out?

Garages say buy something newer, although one did say there was a possibility the valves had not been damaged (something about them being vertical) and that by fitting a new belt and replacing the some bits the engine could run again without taking it apart. I wasn't sure if this could be the case, and left it there.

Does anyone have any advice, even better I'd be very willing to pay someone on the forum to help sort the car out, we really want to keep it - there's so much life left, no rust at all! Even if it meant swapping the engine for a good one, that would be fine. I can borrow the use of a big shed with a crane over a couple of weekends, or even during the week at a push, so the car wouldn't have to be transported - or I could see if I could arrange transport.

Please, someone help!! We're using a borrowed car at the moment and it's not just a temporary measure but horrid after the Xantia!

[Northern_Mike]

I am sorry to say that with a 1.9TD it is 99.9% sure it will have bent valves and likely camshaft damage. Your cheapest and quickest option will be to find a complete head from an undamaged engine/scrap car and have it fitted complete with new timing belt/water pump etc.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[lankytim]

I know to a complete running Xantia TD with a good engine you can by to pilfer for spares if you like. It has tax and test and is £200. Its in shrewsbury though.

[Old-Guy]

My deepest sympathies - we were in much the same position for the last 9 months only our beloved Xantia (of similar age) went bang on a French Autoroute.

Long story short - when I was at last able to strip the engine I found that an unknown foreign body (like a bit of grit) had caused the cam belt to jump one tooth. Despite the hellish noise of the inlet valves kissing the piston crowns, there was no detectable damage to head or bottom end. After meticulous re-assembly, it started and ran apparently perfectly normally. After some 30 miles of normal country motoring (I've never revved the nuts off it), I'm beginning to think we've 'got away' with it - the bottom end of these engines is almost 'bomb-proof'.

However, I fear that a snapped cambelt (Why?) may be an altogether different matter. Perhaps someone with experience of broken cambelts on XUD9s will be along soon. It may help to know in what the circumstances (and possibly why) a nearly new belt broke - it should have lasted 10 times longer than that.

Please try not to scrap her! She is worth repairing despite what the unfeeling professionals say! A head change isn't a huge job - I've had the head off ours twice now, if you want a step-by-step guide (just updated), PM me.

[Xantidote]

Very sorry at your loss - hope you can resurrect it.

Like Old-Guy, I wonder what caused the relatively new belt to fail? Was the water pump renewed at the same time as the cambelt was replaced - maybe you don't know the answer. Another possibility is the belt tension not being correct. The early TDs (including mine) have a simple manual adjuster, whereas the later TDs (and I'm not sure when the change happened) had a more sophisticated auto-tensioner system.

Good luck, and keep us posted. Too far away for me to be any help to you

[Trainman]

If you're after a garage to do the work, Graham Morton is based in the Holmfirth area, http://www.grahammortonvehicles.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Old-Guy]

.... The early TDs (including mine) have a simple manual adjuster, whereas the later TDs (and I'm not sure when the change happened) had a more sophisticated auto-tensioner system.

Ours is 95 spec. built Jan 96; no EGR or engine ECU but cam-belt auto-tensioner. I have to say that as this only auto-tensions when the belt is fitted and must then be locked off, it's important to set it properly by removing the timing pins and turning the engine over on the crankshaft pulley bolt several times before tightening the tensioner pinch bolt and the pivot nut to lock the tensioner.

Good luck, and keep us posted. Too far away for me to be any help to you

Me too.

[602]

Thanks for all your replies, guys. The long alternator/etc belt has vanished, is this cause or result I wonder? The previous owner had replaced the water pump at the same time as the belt, so I doubt it would be this.

I've an old friend who has offered to trailer the car for me, in return for a good dinner. He runs on free fuel (waste cooking oil), I'd hire the trailer.

I look forward to more replies - I can't express the good feeling generated by having a little sympathy, even if this doesn't sort out the car. Although I'm not totally incapable on a practical level, with two very young children time is at a premium and I feel this job is one step beyond my abilities. I can't really afford for it to go wrong, either - how life changes when children arrive! I would love someone who appreciates these cars as much as we do to have the work.

As well as the heater matrix, clutch, brakes and full service, it's also had a new exhaust, radiator and spheres, all courtesy of the last owner. Everything else is holding up just fine, perhaps he was getting tired by the time he got to the belt?!!

[Lighty]

I have found that the 1.9 xud engine rarely bends the valves. Usually the camshaft snaps into @ 3 pieces, and breaks the journals on the cam. We used to fit a used cam & journals, and off they would go again.
I have some journals at work, not sure about a cam, but can have a look tomorrow if you like.

[citronut]

sounds like the aux drive belt was the culprit, you will almost certainly find strips/shreds of aux belt inside the cam belt covers

[Xaccers]

First things first, the car sounds too good to get rid of with all the other work that's been done to it.

Now, cam belts snapping is something I know about, having had Cassy's go doing 40mph on the M25 one night.

There are 3 options open to you depending on how much time and money you can spend.

1. Scour scrap yards, ebay and online parts places for a new cam shaft, two end caps and the middle cap. Order new cam cap studs from Citroen to replace the ones in the head as they may be slightly bent. Sourcing the parts takes the longest while fitting them is the quickest. Time up the fuel pump and crank (Haynes manual is actually pretty good for this), fit the new cam and caps in timed position, fit new water pump, fit the new belt, turn the engine over via the crank bolt using a spanner/socket to ensure it turns (don't do this with the cam cover off unless you want oil everywhere), fit the belt covers (invent some new swear words), fit new aux belt and you should be good to go, however:
a) It may take many caps to find ones that fit well enough over the cam.
b) I did this first with Cassy, it ran great, however I also replaced the tensioners which really don't need replacing, and didn't use enough locktite on the nut that holds the tensioner on it's pivot stud. The nut came off, the tensioner moved away from the engine and bent the stud resulting in the belt eating it's way through the plastic covers until it jammed against the fuel pump sprocket when I tried to start it (I was moving house so didn't have time to investigate the whirring noise of the belt eating the plastic).
CitroJim and I replaced the stud, used the right amount of locktite and fitted a new belt and pump (the pumps don't like being disturbed), but we were in a hurry to get the job done so Cassy could be moved to a friend's house with a drive and declared her SORN. We rushed and the timing was just a bit out causing burning coals to spew out of her exhaust (I was following as Jim drove, it was very scary to see!). I think this damaged one of the cam caps. We sorted the timing, got her taxed and she ran beautifully for the next 6 months or so, then one morning when I went to start her she just went clunk. Instinct told me to pop the cam cover off and the cap closest to the cam sprocket was broken. What's more it had scratched the cam which in turn had scratched it's journal in the head. I believe had we taken our time and gotten the timing right there wouldn't have been an issue. This does however lead to the next option:

2. Replace the head. Jim and I did it over a weekend with the car parked in the road. You'll need a suitable head, and to have it skimmed, a gasket, new head bolts, a protractor and nerves of steel for when you do that final turn of each bolt. Again the Haynes manual covers the job reasonably well.

3. Replace the engine. Involves the most work, you'll have bits left over at the end I guarantee it, and it wastes the new clutch as I don't think it's advisable to transfer clutches (but I could be wrong).

[sparksie]

Yes, I believe the "fan" belt will be the cause here.
They break and wrap around the crank pulley, getting under the timing belt and usually breaking it.
A lot will depend on what was going on when the belt broke.
If you were cranking it on the starter, you MIGHT have got away with it.
If you were in the outside lane on the motorway, you certainly won't.
However, these engines are very good, for an interference design, in that they don't usually break valve heads off inside the cylinder.
Instead they push them up and shatter the cam shaft and, often, the bearing caps.
Only Mitsubishi do this better, with sacrificial rocker arms.
Pop the cam cover off and see what you see.
Make sure she's not at tdc and try turning the cam sprocket, assuming you can't see anything wrong straight away.
If all seems good, then it's got to be worth fitting a belt and trying it.
Here's hoping

[rory_perrett]

I had the auxiliary belt strip and bits of it enter the cam cover causing the cam belt to jump. This was on the 2.1 and the first time it smashed some cam followers. The second time I'm not sure what damage it did as as at that time I didn't have the time to fix it and just bought another car (the one I currently have). Later on I did re-time and while it was difficult to start it ran fine. Anyway I digress. The 1.9 is different in that it doesn't have sacrificial cam followers but if the valves are hit hard enough it will wreck the cam shaft. While I didn't have any bent valves I decided to to replace the ones that had been whacked by the pistons just in case.

As said previously, depending on how fast everything was going you might have got away with it and it just needs a new belt and re-timing.

Any recommendation depends on what you can do yourself and what you are going to pay labour for. I'm aware that I spend hours of my time doing jobs and sorting problems on my car that, given its value, would be uneconomic if I was paying £40, £50, £60 or whatever pounds per hour to some garage.

If I wasn't paying labour I would first take the cam cover off and look for damage. If none was obvious I would stick a belt on and see if it runs. If there is damage, or it doesn't run with a new belt on then the second hand head would be my next move.

Some would always have a head skimmed before fitting and if I was paying labour cost for fitting it I would have it skimmed but if I was doing it myself I would check to see if it is flat and if it appears to be ok I would just fit it. Maybe I've just been lucky but I've always got away with it in the past.

At least with a used head you can have a good look at it before you fit it. Although a complete engine could in the long run be a better proposition, at least an engine change is a known quantity, but unless you know where it comes from and it's history a complete engine can be a bit of a gamble.

As a man who has become a bit obsessive about keeping a Xantia that is well past its scrap by date going and spending hours tracking down and fixing what feels like a never ending stream of faults I'm probably not the best person to ask but, for what it's worth, I would persevere with a car that sound much more worthy of saving than mine.

[Old-Guy]

Auxiliary belt shredding seems to be the most common cause of cam-belts breaking.

...however I also replaced the tensioners which really don't need replacing, and didn't use enough locktite on the nut that holds the tensioner on it's pivot stud. The nut came off, ...

I replaced the original plain nut with an all-steel lock nut with threadlock to be doubly certain. This nut is about the only thing that can come completely loose inside the cambelt case and I'm now slightly neurotic about foreign bodies inside the belt case causing the belt to jump a tooth!

If the belt covers are damaged and/or don't fit really well, do make the effort to find well fitting replacements - any foreign body inside the case can cause the belt to break or jump teeth with catastrophic results.

[Xantidote]

any foreign body inside the case can cause the belt to break or jump teeth with catastrophic results

I guess that having the undershield fitted might help prevent foreign bodies getting where they shouldn't, although my TD has never had one in my 16 yrs of ownership. Also wonder if not having an undershield reduces the life of the auxillary belt tensioner by allowing moisture/water/dirt to get past the tensioner's bearing seal once it's worn a bit.