fed up now........

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Re: fed up now........

Post by sparksie »

Yes, they should have been a bit more open about their position when refusing the job.
I can understand their position, however. Sight unseen, we'd never book more than half a day for a handbrake cable, usually a lot less.
If, after the first half hour, it became apparent the job couldn't be done in the time allotted, we'd put it back together and offer the client another appointment with a bigger time allocation, along with an apology and a full explanation of the reason for the delay.
To do otherwise risks having two, or even three unhappy clients in one day, due to subsequent jobs being delayed by the awkward one.
I can't imagine a flat refusal, though.
I almost fancy having a go at one, just to see what the problem is.
Don't know where I'd find one of those to play with, though. Or time, come to that.
If one ever comes in for a handbrake cable, I'll know to order a couple of guide tubes in advance and allow a day for what sounds like a tough learning curve.
I wonder would it be worth taking some pictures of the job as it progresses. It would make interesting viewing...
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Re: fed up now........

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

It might be worth asking lightly to do just that.
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Re: fed up now........

Post by BX »

Yeah its a Citroen so its must be expensive to maintain. These cars are unbelieveably complicated to do anything with. Or are they. The handbrake cable and the tube really have to be replaced together. It is possible to seperate them but on a customers car its not worth it. As far as I remember the tube is between €15 and €20 including VAT. As already mentioned on this thread the tube can be replaced by undoing the heat shield. The shield is held with quick release screws. The cables and the plastic ends on the tubes must be released from inside the car. One M6 nut to be undone on each tube under the wheelarch. Removing the tube and getting in the new one is a bit of a fiddly wriggle. I cannot understand why the replacing the two should take more than 2 hours and it should be done in much less.
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Re: fed up now........

Post by Lighty »

I already had a few, might do a full set on Deans, time is usually an issue.
This is the heat shield released, note the exhaust is still on. The exhaust front x member support is off, but you need to pull the exhaust support (with rubber supports) off as well .


Image


Some of the tube just visible above heat shield


Image


Inside the car with console out (obviously), nipples released from lever.

Image


This bit is tricky, you can see I have smashed the white clip,it's about the only way to release it from the floor, it's a tight fit.


Image



Where the inner cable exits the tube, they are usually broke here, this is where the water gets in. It's under the wheel arch, not surprising really .


Image


New tube & Brkt heading towards the correct location. Getting the new one in, and located at each end is the hardest part of the job. I bolt yhis Brkt on 1st, and then with a really small flexing of the tube along its longest length, you can locate the white plastic clip into the floor pan hole


Image
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Re: fed up now........

Post by deano1970 »

lol,
how about that sparksie?? a load of pics that mean absolutely nothing to me,in fact,the only one i recognise is the last one cos I recognise the little bracket as I have one guide tube in my car waiting to be fitted by mark on the 26th....or the 24th hopefully if he can get me in then......be nice to be able to use the handbrake again, though I have got used to it without it, the mrs definitely hasn't..... :-D frightened to death of a car coming up behind her if she is stuck on a hill
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Re: fed up now........

Post by sparksie »

Hi Deano

Yes, I know what you mean, but I think you'd find the pics would make sense, once you get into it.
The trouble with pictures, taken close enough to show detail, is they omit context.
But, once you've been in the photographer's position, you can fill in the context yourself and concentrate on the details the picture is supposed to show.
I'll be keeping those for future reference, whenever I'm lucky enough to get my hands on one.
And, BX, the first time doing anything invariably takes longer. I've never changed a handbrake cable on a C5, but I've heard from plenty of forumites with experience of the job, all of whom (bar you!) acknowledge it's a pig of a job. When I book one in, I'm going to go with the majority vote and anticipate having problems with it.
Then neither I nor my client will be disappointed. If I say I'll do it in two hours and end up taking a day, who's that going to please?
Had I not read all about it on here, I'd struggle for a half an hour, before giving up and arranging another date.
On the new date, I'd struggle for a few hours, probably break something, before eventually realising that the guide tube is a consumable part.
Then I'd have to order two of them and have to give the car back still with no handbrake, while awaiting delivery of something that other manufacturers would have included with the cable, if they knew it had to be replaced at the same time.
Finally, on my third attempt, I'd probably get it done in an hour, or so.
Are you trying to say I should swallow the bill for the hours spent failing?
In fact, usually I do, if something like that happens, but it leaves a bad taste and I'm not likely to risk it happening a second time!
Citroens are not generally "bad" cars, they're just different, often for no good reason. Knowledge is key and acquiring it is going to cost SOMEBODY money. In business, all costs eventually get passed on to the customer! That's life.
Round here there aren't enough Citroens to warrant an independent specialist, so Citroen drivers are stuck with main dealer, or mainstream independent. Dealers are the same across all brands and nobody can afford them once their car is more than a few years old.
Independents are going to have the experience I've outlined every time something unconventional comes in and WILL have to charge for it if they're to stay in business.
Hey presto, one expensive to maintain car with tumbling residual value!
It's not just Citroens, nor even just French cars. What about the Ford Focus subframe bolt that wouldn't come out with the gearbox in place? You had to drop the subframe to get the gearbox out, but you had to get the gearbox out to remove the subframe bolt!
And if you put it back the other way up, it ate the gearbox casing over the next few thousand miles.
Lots of egg on lots of independent faces over that one, a few years ago! Many burned fingers for those used to Fiesta and Escort!
But Citroen seem to do it more than most and grease monkeys have long memories and know how to bear a grudge!
So cut us a bit of slack. They DO cost more and for good reason.
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Re: fed up now........

Post by Northern_Mike »

sparksie wrote: Finally, on my third attempt, I'd probably get it done in an hour, or so.
Are you trying to say I should swallow the bill for the hours spent failing?
Well why not? It's you who offered to do the job...it's not the customer's fault you can't. In my other life as a PC-repairer, if I offered to repair a PC and said it would be £40 and take me an hour, and couldn't because it was a bit different, I'd still charge what I said I'd charge.

I wish more mechanics would. It would enhance their reputation somewhat. I find it increasingly difficult to get what turns out to be an honest quote. One place wouldn't even come close to giving me a quote because "well, some pipe unions might be seized, it might be awkward to get the pipe out or the new one in"...

I DON'T CARE. THAT ISN'T MY ISSUE. THEY ARE THE MECHANIC, AND SHOULD EXPECT THESE ISSUES - This lot were supposed to be recommended specialists in this repair, and wouldn't be straight with me. Sod them. I'd much prefer it if things were priced by job, rather than time taken - my auto electrician does this. I know it took him around 4 hours to do what he did. He got £160 out of me, he had the car for three days and did it when he had time. He's happy, I'm happy.

The motto is - give me a price, stick to it, I'll come back. If I turn up and you try and charge me another £100 because of a problem you should have been aware of, you won't see me, or anyone who asks me for a recommendation again.

It's different if, I've asked you to *investigate* a problem and suggest a fix, say on a knocking Berlingo - That's effectively open ended, though I know how long it takes to strip a front strut, mount, spring and arm so I'd be annoyed if I was told it took 6 hours..
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Re: fed up now........

Post by waynedance »

This is why my garage gives estimates not quotes, s h i t happens.

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Re: fed up now........

Post by Northern_Mike »

And it what other business would it be acceptable? It's not the customer's fault the garage doesn't know what they are doing.

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Re: fed up now........

Post by sparksie »

And there's the reason why some places just say "No".
They can't afford to subsidise the unusual stuff, so they stick to what they know.
I can't afford to pay to work on peoples cars. If I don't earn enough to pay the bills, I simply have to stop serving my customers, which actually IS a problem for them.
Two sides to every argument. I tend to compromise a lot more than most, which is why I'm still a small time "back street" operator, but most of my clients are long time repeat customers. They know I'm straight and I say "I don't know" when it's appropriate. I've also been known to say "Sorry, my fault" on occasion.
I'm not a successful businessman, nor am I ever likely to be, in the commonly accepted sense, but my business survived virtually unscathed, through the downturn, where many of the big guys folded.
If I estimate high and come in under, I charge for the actual job. Smiles all round.
If I estimate low and come in higher, I'll have told the customer immediately it became apparent and I'll usually only cover costs. No profit for me and an unhappy customer as well, but s/he knows how and why it happened and will usually be back, because they know I've shared their pain.
Some component reconditioners (starters, alternators, gearboxes, etc) charge a fixed price for a job. You bring in the old item and walk out with a rebuilt one, for a fixed price. They work on equipment that is always the same, requires the same set of parts, takes the same length of time and only very occasionally has an unexpected problem. They set their prices to cover these unexpected hits, so most of their customers are subsidising the bad ones and nobody is taking a big hit. But even these are starting to be replaced by guys who fix what's actually wrong and give you back your own, with the price determined by the repair carried out. In these penny-pinching times nobody wants to be paying for work on other peoples toys.
Cars are not predictable like that. Changing brake pipes can be a breeze or a nightmare and there's often no way of knowing which way it's going to go until you're half way through. Has somebody had a go already, using metric spanners on imperial fittings? Has the car been regularly driven on the beach?
Or is it meticulously cleaned, dried and garaged after every trip?
Or is it the first, but looks like the last? It's just not possible to set the price high enough to cover all eventualities and still get the job.
An honest garage will tell you so and let you make an informed decision.
A cowboy will set a price he might not be able to meet and hope for the best, doing WHATEVER he has to, to come in on budget. Some real horrors out there!
I don't trust anybody who knows, before they start, what they're going to charge me! They're either ripping me off or they're an idiot. I try not to deal with either!
Still, I appreciate some people prefer certainty and can afford to pay for it.
That's why main dealers can charge what they do and, for the most part, get away with it. Fixed price 395 euro (about UK£310) timing belt, anyone? I've done some of those for 95 euro, when everything went well! Happy me and happy client.
But some prefer to pay the extra 300, just for the certainty of knowing in advance!
Go figure
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Re: fed up now........

Post by Northern_Mike »

sparksie wrote:And there's the reason why some places just say "No".
They can't afford to subsidise the unusual stuff, so they stick to what they know.
I can't afford to pay to work on peoples cars. If I don't earn enough to pay the bills, I simply have to stop serving my customers, which actually IS a problem for them.
Two sides to every argument. I tend to compromise a lot more than most, which is why I'm still a small time "back street" operator, but most of my clients are long time repeat customers. They know I'm straight and I say "I don't know" when it's appropriate. I've also been known to say "Sorry, my fault" on occasion.
I'm not a successful businessman, nor am I ever likely to be, in the commonly accepted sense, but my business survived virtually unscathed, through the downturn, where many of the big guys folded.
This is how I was brought up from an early age when I worked in a backstreet garage in school holidays and after school from the age of about 13, until I went and trained properly at a Citroen dealer back in the 80s. You sound like a honest chap, and that's the way it should. A lot of the customers in the place I helped out in were repeat customers.

Now, I don't trust any of the garages I know any more.

One, a very well known Citroen Specialist in Berkshire - I asked them to investigate and fix the Berlingo noisy suspension. I got a call later that afternoon - £100 sir. We've had it apart, couldn't find anything wrong, put it back together and you can pick it up. So, they took it apart, obviously didn't investigate properly, and charged me £100 and gave it me back, expecting me to book it in with them to have replacement parts fitted, and pay another £100 labour.. You can guess how that conversation ended. A call when it was in bits, to advise me, would have been in order. This wasn't the mystery knock it has now either - this sounded like a knackered old bed with two fatties shagging on it. They did not get my repeat business, and I'd used them for a few jobs in the past, as had two of my mates, who now go elsewhere.

I had a new top mount, drop link and bottom arm fitted elsewhere in Berkshire. It started knocking almost immediately, like balljoint knock. This is still ongoing. They've inspected it once, FOC, couldn't find anything wrong, and want me to take it back for a full strip-down. I've no faith in them now, as it's a loud knock. I suspect the wrong top mount or bottom arm has been fitted, but this will be denied. I'll take it somewhere recommended to me on here, which has been arranged. I *don't care* what is wrong with it, as long as they are honest and fix it. That's all I ask.

I did have one I trust, but I asked them for a price for a friend in the area , his labour charge was good, but then he tried to charge them £150 for a Valeo clutch kit for a Pug 1007 when I can get one retail for £80, and that one had never ripped me off before in years and years...

If I treated my customers like this, I'd not have any in short order.

I know cars aren't wholly predictable, but please.... a decent mechanic should come across most things to know it's often not plain sailing and should be able to deal with them. Had my dear ex-wife not given away about £5000 worth of tools when we got divorced, I'd rarely, if ever go near a garage now..

(I'm not having a go at you there, that's how I feel about garages, you sound like a decent chap, but then you're over there, not in the south east!)
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Re: fed up now........

Post by sparksie »

Hi

Positively my last post for tonight :)
Have you considered the shock itself?
They sometimes partially seize. They can pass a test in this condition, but the noise they make sounds like a lump hammer left dangling close to the chassis leg. Not had it on a Berlingo, but a few times on 206s. The first one took quite a bit of finding and it was only by accident we twigged it in the end.
We'd left a pair of Golf struts standing in the corner, with the springs and conspicuously NOT failed strut tops off, while we stripped and examined the rest of the suspension. Having found nothing amiss, we called it a night.
Next morning, when we went to put it back together, we found one shock piston had settled at the bottom during the night, but the other was close to the top of its travel. It didn't budge when I leaned on it, but it did pull back up ok and then felt normal again.
I dug an old one out of the skip and we rebuilt the front of the car with that and hey presto, no more bang bang over the undulations on the road.
A few days later the owner was delighted to have two new shocks fitted and her husband has sent us a lot of his mates since. He'd been tearing his hair out over it, because it sounded like something big was about to fall off and nobody could find it!
Now I can often recognise the characteristics of the knocking sound and diagnose it on a test drive, though I wouldn't be so cocky as to order a set of shocks based on the drive alone.
With the strut out, you should be able to push the piston all the way down without any snagging and, if it's a gas filled one, it should come smoothly all the way back up on its own. If it's a basic one you should be able to pull it up and, given time, gravity should bring it back down. Any hesitation is suspicious.
Good luck
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Re: fed up now........

Post by Lighty »

I think a handbrake repair on a C5 is very reasonably priced, compared to a Renault Scenic (or other Renaults with electric units. The part alone is £380 +vat! and the. Requires Renault clip to program it all in !
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Re: fed up now........

Post by qprdude »

Does the first C5 have the handbrake on the front wheels?
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Re: fed up now........

Post by Peter.N. »

Mine does.
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