HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT - YES

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citroenxm
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2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by citroenxm »

Yes BX Im also aware that heater plugs arent really needed, Ive NEVER fitted any in mine and now at 264k ...

Mine does NOT turn over very quickly at all, but always starts within 6 turns or less....

This is why im NOT convinced its a starter issue, BUT I could be very much wrong!
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
jgra1
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by jgra1 »

yikes..
thanks both

BX
so.. your thoughts? its a colder day.. the starter just isn't able to provide..
something Northern Mike alluded to at the very beginning...

car was behaving very well for the last week, after a pump swap.. granted the temps were not 0C.. but its not been mild really.. so, I am still struggling with this one.. I just accept now every day since October, I take a pipe off and spray easy start. :(

the only time I have not had to do that, was after a pump change last week.. but that situation has reverted.

what I find frustrating most..
I brought a lexia, and with that and everyone's help here..no one knows exactly why it wont start on an average cold morning,, I don't blame the lexia or anyone lol, it just seems a shame somehow I am still wondering what part next to try... to see if it will help

but.. and... I have a feeling.. its something cheap and simple and overlooked.. as a lot of intermittent engine faults are :)
at least she starts , and drives perfectly :) - once a splash of ES is there,

sorry rant over :)
BX
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by BX »

When the temperature drops the battery is less efficent. The engine and gear oil becomes more viscous so the engine is harder to crank over. The result is that the engine cranks more slowly. The drop of a few degrees in ambient air temperature is magnified in the temperature achieved when the air is compressed on the compression stroke. The slower cranking speed also further drops the temperature by giving more time for heat to be lost from the air into the piston, cylinder walls and the head. These components are also at a lower temperature and so more readily absorb the heat. On a common rail engine like the HDI the slower cranking also makes the minimum fuel rail pressure required by the ECU before injection is commenced less likely to be achieved. Rather than spend money try to bump start it on a hill or with a push or tow. You can engage the starter just before letting up the clutch if using a push or a hill. Yes I know that bump starting is not good for the transmission, clutch or DMF but once or twice is unlikely to cause any harm. Even with seemingly identical engines there can be differences in behaviour. The principles are the same for the 1948 Ferguson 20 as for the latest electronically controlled engine. All you need for ignition is to spray fuel into high temperature compressed air. The reason that IDI engines such as fitted to the older xantia need glow plugs is due to heat loss from the compressed air into the cylinder head through the pre combustion chamber walls.
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by taffy »

I just bought an exide 62amp £57 and its excellent
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jgra1
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by jgra1 »

Thanks bx...taffy i am trying to sell my brand new exide!! :)

Will try the bump.. can see how that could help diagnose.. more soon..
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by taffy »

dont sell it they are good batterys fro what ive read :)
well i bought 4 injectors of a runing vehicle and my car still wont start but the battery is turning the engine over better then ive ever seen :)
now to buy a lexia today and get this sorted
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by taffy »

tbh i thought my old battery was fine untill i got a new one :)
99 silver 2.1td exclusive xantia
99 red 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia..
00 black 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
99 blue 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
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jgra1
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by jgra1 »

car been off road for 3 days.. went to it earlier.. battery was 12.6V..
yes power is reaching the glowplugs.. for 5/10 seconds then that turns off..

Think I will try changing the starter next ...
:)
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by taffy »

i took mine off stripped and cleaned it..might save u few quid and dont take too long
99 silver 2.1td exclusive xantia
99 red 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia..
00 black 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
99 blue 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
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57 blue C4 GP 1.6hdi exclusive
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citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by citroenxm »

Taff.

Lexia WONT HELP if the engine mangement light is NOT on, as it wont report a fault ..

Unless you understand actual physical figures on the Live Parameters and what they should be, which I DONT ...
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
jgra1
(Donor 2021)
Posts: 4625
Joined: 27 Nov 2005, 19:07
Location: Kent / Susssex
My Cars: 2010 C5 X7 2.0 hdi 160 exc auto
MG TF 135
Boxer II 2.2 camper conversion
BMW R1200RT
BMW K1300 R
Honda V F R 800 5thG / MT500 Armstrong
x 39

Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by jgra1 »

will rebuild starter I think...

what could cause it to run a few rpm less than it should.. bad earth, bad cables generally.. worn brush(s) dirt...
the car must be very sensitive, to my ears it does sound fine..
may throw lex on it again tomorrow and concentrate on the crank rpm's.. it certainly wont start in morning :) -2 tonight

Paul.. there must be a way of adding a 'sticky' for the live parameters for the HDi, between us ,, there aren't that many really..
just a list of values that are ok, a bit suspect, or completely wrong.. or something.. I know I am simplifying and generalising but..

for example, my injector correction differences don't seem to be that bad.. not ideal, but not enough to cause my issues..

taken from local mechanic and google...
Northern_Mike

Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by Northern_Mike »

jgra1 wrote:will rebuild starter I think...

what could cause it to run a few rpm less than it should.. bad earth, bad cables generally.. worn brush(s) dirt...
the car must be very sensitive, to my ears it does sound fine..
may throw lex on it again tomorrow and concentrate on the crank rpm's.. it certainly wont start in morning :) -2 tonight

Paul.. there must be a way of adding a 'sticky' for the live parameters for the HDi, between us ,, there aren't that many really..
just a list of values that are ok, a bit suspect, or completely wrong.. or something.. I know I am simplifying and generalising but..
It shouldn't be too hard if someone can take a few screenshots of an HDI that's running well and get the live parameters off them at various stages throughout the rev range.

Make a sticky with the values listed, then those with faulty HDis can compare their figures to the ones from a car that runs well. I'm aware the one that's running "well" might not be spot on either, but surely if it's running well, the figures will be something like right.
citroenxm
Posts: 8061
Joined: 30 Dec 2004, 23:10
Location: Somewhere in North Wales, Anglesey
My Cars: M reg Xm S2 2.1td Auto Exclusive. 269k and rising
L reg XM S1 V6 12v Manual SEi
L 94 XM 2.1 TD auto total resto

2008 Peugeot 207 Sw 1.6 16v hdi. 217k and rising
2010 Peugeot 207 SW 1.6 8v HDi 161k and rising
x 70

Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by citroenxm »

I dont have ANY powers to make stickys if your refering to it, and Ive made requests for stickys but its never happened, though this one sugested could be a good idea, as the TD slowly fades away and HDi becomes more mainstream..

Trouble is though, despite the C5 Mk.1 and Xantia BOTH having the same HD in them, would values still be the same??

Dont some C5 HDi have siemans pumps on them too??
Sharing a pug 207 1.6 hdi Sw 16v.
M reg Xm 2.1 td auto exclusive S2 269k and rising
L reg XM V6 12v SEi auto .. Light project

A very sad...
1994 XM 2.1 d auto
taffy
Posts: 1018
Joined: 08 Oct 2012, 00:35
Location: swindon
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Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by taffy »

thats one thing i noticed on mine that the cranking speed was irregular compared to how it spins over now with all done...i just cleaned the main earth from top off gearbox to chassis under the bat tray,took off starter stripped and cleaned with brake cleaner and small wire brush for armature and clean the groves out spotless,really now is like the engines got no compression lol(hope i dont regret saying that lmao!)
paul i got p0190 with eml on and wont clear :(
and yes i dont know what im looking for on a lexia really so we shall have to start digging into the correct diagnosis,as a citroen techniction they must have manuals for guidance fiqures...i shall start my google mission for tonight lol(prob have to translate some french)
99 silver 2.1td exclusive xantia
99 red 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia..
00 black 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
99 blue 2.0 hdi exclusive xantia
06 silver 1.6 hdi vtr c5
57 blue C4 GP 1.6hdi exclusive
08 black C4 GP 2.0hdi vtr
BX
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x 17

Re: HDi 2.0 8V wont start when cold - FIXED - NOT

Post by BX »

P0190 indicates a fault with the fuel rail pressure sensor. Try to read the FRP in live data with the engine stopped. It should be showing practically zero. the fact it will not clear suggests a fault with the sensor itself or its wiring. The sensor is screwed into the rail. It has 3 wires going to it. The 2 outer pins of the connector are 5V and 0V with respect to earth (battery negative) The voltage on the centre pin varies with the pressure. The figures I have (from the RTA manual) are as follows. 634ohms between pins 1 and 3. Voltage on pin 2 is 0.5V at 100Bar pressure and 3.5V at 300Bar. Im not sure that I trust the 300bar figure though. Anyway you should be getting 5Volts between pins 1 and 3 and the voltage on pin 2 should be almost zero but should rise when the engine is cranked over.
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