Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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MattBLancs
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

Post by MattBLancs »

CitroJim wrote: 21 Feb 2023, 17:25 The pump sprocket puller..

Image

Image

And in use...

Image
Ah, that'll be what's unhelpful described in Haynes "tool tip" make a puller like shown - then a chuffing useless photo rather rather something with dimensions on it!!!

My local engineering place pulled a funny face when asked for M7 bolts. Peugeot, Citroen (and seemingly Vespa) seems to be only ones on the planet who don't go up to M8 or down to M6 instead! :rofl2:
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CitroJim
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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MattBLancs wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 21:10 My local engineering place pulled a funny face when asked for M7 bolts. Peugeot, Citroen (and seemingly Vespa) seems to be only ones on the planet who don't go up to M8 or down to M6 instead! :rofl2:
Yes, decidedly an odd size Matt... I even bought a set of M7 (and M9) taps and dies. Some older Citroen hydraulics use M9 on the their 4.5mm hydraulic unions...

A temporary source of suitable M7 bolts for the job is BE3 gearbox case bolts ;) I can't remember now if the ML5 uses M7 bolts too..
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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CitroJim wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 06:23 Yes, decidedly an odd size Matt... I even bought a set of M7 (and M9) taps and dies. Some older Citroen hydraulics use M9 on the their 4.5mm hydraulic unions...

A temporary source of suitable M7 bolts for the job is BE3 gearbox case bolts ;) I can't remember now if the ML5 uses M7 bolts too..
Yes I have some ex- gearbox casing M7 saved too! Think mine were from a BE4 - so that wasn't revised when the gearbox updated from BE3.

Have M7x1.0 taps as hoped would come in for brake bleed nipple snapped off recovery task. Also bought M8x1.0 too (and some bleed nipples to suit) so could go up a size if it went wrong. Not used either yet and happy if it stays that way!

It narks me the use of M7 on that injection pump pulley as there's loads of metal in that area! Could so easily be an M8 x1.25, standard pitch) pair of holes and all the simpler for it! I almost drilled them out for M8 (once pulley was off) but then decided I was unlikely to take the pulley off again so left it be!
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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P.s. pretty sure the dead AL4 automatic also gave me some M7 bolts for future use too
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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You do have to wonder about the choice of sizes used Matt... Did PSA do a good deal on a bulk buy of M7 bolts and was the designer of the pump sprocket in a bad mood the day when an M7 thread was decided upon... Makes you wonder!

It's like Japanese cars never have any 13mm nuts or bolts... Some say it's a superstitious thing, unlucky 13 and all that but the other day I heard another reason but for the life of me I can remember it now. All I know is it's a good job I have 12mm stuff when working on my Pixo...

I can only immediately think of one 12mm thing on a Citroen and that's the pressure relief valve on the hydraulic pressure regulator...
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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Didn't know that about 13mm heads on Japanese cars, interesting!

I've used 12mm on PSA stuff occasionally, but generally along the lines of rusty blob: rounded off with 13mm, then again with the (12.7mm) 1/2" , next hammer on a 12mm and see if that can shift it! :-D
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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CitroJim wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 09:50

It's like Japanese cars never have any 13mm nuts or bolts...
Yes and no.
I have 5 old Japanese bikes. The 1980 Z650 and Z1000 have 13mm heads, the 1983 GPz1100 has 12mm, the 1995 Zephry 1100 has 12. I haven't got my 1986 TY250 here to check that one. So it would seem Kawasaki, at least, transitioned between 1980 and 1983. I would make an educated guess the year would be 1981 on the new models coming out and the last runs of the old models, like the Z650, would continue to use the old stock. The reason for this assumption is that my 1983 GPz1100 uses the Z1000 / Z1100 from 1981 to 1983 as a base manual and has a supplement manual for the extra things like monoshock rear suspension, anti-dive units on the front forks and the fuel injection system to name a few.
I worked for Toyota from 1991 in the factory at Burnaston and there wasn't a 13mm in the factory. Would be interesting to see if an older, pre 1980 Toyota had 13mm.
I can't guarantee this but I seem to recall, from my days there and knowing their philosophies, it was a cost saver. Miniscule but over the millions of nuts and bolts the saving would be huge.

Either that or they got a PSA bloke in the design department flipping a coin on some tarot cards :rofl2:
The 2 front lower bolts holding the hub on my Dispatch.......one end is 15mm, the other 16mm....on the same nut and bolt. The e torx studs holding the water pump on, on my C4 Coupé 2.0 Petrol 16V are E7!!! E7 doesn't come in a kit and the chap at the local motor factors questioned whether it even existed when I wanted to order one.
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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Now that's interesting stuff Pete :D I just knew as soon as I'd typed the word 'never' there would be a list of exceptions ;) :lol: And good to know too!

I can't recall now if any of my old T and GT Suzukis had any 13mm stuff... All I can recall with clarity is lots of crosshead screws needing a really good impact driver to undo them cleanly...

My little Pixo - Indian made but basically a Suzuki Alto - uses 12mm and 14mm where on others you'd find a 13mm. Means you have an opportunity to loose and mislay two sockets and two spanners rather than just the one :lol:

I'm wondering now if cars from other Asian countries eschew the use of 13mm or is is just Japan?
moizeau wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 16:40 Either that or they got a PSA bloke in the design department flipping a coin on some tarot cards :rofl2:
:lol: Knowing them, very possible!
moizeau wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 16:40 The 2 front lower bolts holding the hub on my Dispatch.......one end is 15mm, the other 16mm....on the same nut and bolt. The e torx studs holding the water pump on, on my C4 Coupé 2.0 Petrol 16V are E7!!! E7 doesn't come in a kit and the chap at the local motor factors questioned whether it even existed when I wanted to order one.
The 15/16mm on the same bolt is so you only need one of each spanner in your kit ;) :lol: Think that occurs on thee Xantia somewhere too..

E7... Now that's a new one on me!
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

Post by moizeau »

CitroJim wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 18:05

All I can recall with clarity is lots of crosshead screws needing a really good impact driver to undo them cleanly...

That's because the cross head 'philips' isn't a philips, it's JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard). Many a young lad has trashed the engine casing screws on bikes, me included, thinking they were made of monkey metal, nope, just a different shape. The JIS screwdriver doesn't cam out and works very well on philips.
IMG_20230112_170027_1.jpg
I've got these now, the longer one is an impact driver that turns the tip 12 degrees, Vessel, pricey but superb.
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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moizeau wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 18:15
CitroJim wrote: 23 Feb 2023, 18:05

All I can recall with clarity is lots of crosshead screws needing a really good impact driver to undo them cleanly...

That's because the cross head 'philips' isn't a philips, it's JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard). Many a young lad has trashed the engine casing screws on bikes, me included, thinking they were made of monkey metal, nope, just a different shape. The JIS screwdriver doesn't cam out and works very well on philips.
Well there! I never knew that! Thanks Pete :-D
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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MattBLancs wrote: 22 Feb 2023, 21:10 Ah, that'll be what's unhelpful described in Haynes "tool tip" make a puller like shown - then a chuffing useless photo rather rather something with dimensions on it!!!
16771856525331869810363156401624.jpg
This is Haynes unhelpful bit. "Make a tool to align with the bolt holes", surrounded on the page with pictures of a clearly not in the car engine and hence dead easy to measure said bolt hole spacing, just to rub it in whilst you faff about in the slim gap between pulley and inner wing/chassis rail! :twisted:
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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Chocolate teapots come to mind Matt!
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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CitroJim wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 06:04 Chocolate teapots come to mind Matt!
If I can find it I'll post it but there was someone who was given a chocolate teaset, including the teapot and milk jug.
They were perfectly usable and used for quite a while, then eaten.
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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myglaren wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 09:57
CitroJim wrote: 24 Feb 2023, 06:04 Chocolate teapots come to mind Matt!
If I can find it I'll post it but there was someone who was given a chocolate teaset, including the teapot and milk jug.
They were perfectly usable and used for quite a while, then eaten.
Yum 😋 So not quite so useless after all!
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Re: Lucas EPIC Injection Pump Overhaul Guide

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This is back when Haynes were still good... A picture of the official belt tensioning tool for the early TU engine...
(c) Haynes and PSA
(c) Haynes and PSA
Section 5 gives the salient detail needed to make one.