Conrod failure

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Re: Conrod failure

Post by 411514 »

howiedean wrote:
Gibbo2286 wrote:Unless you have modified this engine or have been using it for sport, rallying or such I think you have a claim, not against Citroen but against the dealer/repairer.
Connecting rods in modern cars don't fail unless there's an inherent fault in the materials or the fitter has messed up the re-assembling.

Misuse by the driver i.e. driving with low oil or continuing to drive after the engine starts knocking are a possibility of course but the repairer would have to have some evidence of that before he could use it as a defence.

In your shoes I would get an estimate from another repairer to put the car back into serviceable condition, present that estimate to your repairer together with a written notice that if they don't respond within seven days with a satisfactory/acceptable offer you will issue a small claims court summons for damages of that amount.
Don't bluff, go online and get the claims form from the court office and if they don't respond issue the summons, it will cost you a small fee to do but it puts the ball firmly in their lap, they will either have to come up with a defence or pay up.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/small-claims#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm liking this approach to be honest. Have you priced up a replacement engine as you'll know pretty quick which way your likely to go with this info, favorable or otherwise? :wink:
Although clearly this approach would yield the best outcome for the OP it is flawed and thus unlikely to prevail. When considering an inherent fault in the manufacture of the conrods, the neighbour principle would dissolve the dealer/repairer of any liability and duty for reparation would fall to Citroen.

The repairer would not have to acquire any evidence of misuse, rather the OP would have to prove that at no point was the car operated in a way that the reasonable man might consider to be misuse (very difficult).

Were an action to be instigated against the garage it would most certainly not be the case that they must come up with a defence or pay-up. They will simply deny any liability and it would fall to the OP to provide solid undeniably evidence of a breach of trust.

Do not engage in legal action as it is not worth it. You will not recover any funds but will waste a lot of time and effort attempting to do so.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by Gibbo2286 »

411514 wrote:
howiedean wrote:
Gibbo2286 wrote:Unless you have modified this engine or have been using it for sport, rallying or such I think you have a claim, not against Citroen but against the dealer/repairer.
Connecting rods in modern cars don't fail unless there's an inherent fault in the materials or the fitter has messed up the re-assembling.

Misuse by the driver i.e. driving with low oil or continuing to drive after the engine starts knocking are a possibility of course but the repairer would have to have some evidence of that before he could use it as a defence.

In your shoes I would get an estimate from another repairer to put the car back into serviceable condition, present that estimate to your repairer together with a written notice that if they don't respond within seven days with a satisfactory/acceptable offer you will issue a small claims court summons for damages of that amount.
Don't bluff, go online and get the claims form from the court office and if they don't respond issue the summons, it will cost you a small fee to do but it puts the ball firmly in their lap, they will either have to come up with a defence or pay up.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/small-claims#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm liking this approach to be honest. Have you priced up a replacement engine as you'll know pretty quick which way your likely to go with this info, favorable or otherwise? :wink:
Although clearly this approach would yield the best outcome for the OP it is flawed and thus unlikely to prevail. When considering an inherent fault in the manufacture of the conrods, the neighbour principle would dissolve the dealer/repairer of any liability and duty for reparation would fall to Citroen.

The repairer would not have to acquire any evidence of misuse, rather the OP would have to prove that at no point was the car operated in a way that the reasonable man might consider to be misuse (very difficult).

Were an action to be instigated against the garage it would most certainly not be the case that they must come up with a defence or pay-up. They will simply deny any liability and it would fall to the OP to provide solid undeniably evidence of a breach of trust.

Do not engage in legal action as it is not worth it. You will not recover any funds but will waste a lot of time and effort attempting to do so.

You make the small claims procedure seem daunting, it is not, nor is it too costly. I'm not familiar with the Scottish system but if it's on a par with the rest of the UK it's simply a matter of sitting across a desk from a judge with the defendant beside you, stating your case with all the necessary paperwork to back it up, the defendant then has his say and the judge decides on the merits and finds in favour of one or the other.

In my experience judges will make allowances for the little man fighting against corporate giants.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by Stickyfinger »

Hi

Just to add a little.

In relation to Citroen, ONLY the failed part is significant. Have the remains of the Con-Rod and the bearing checked...the microscopic structure at the break WILL tell if it is a "Failure" either in manufacture/materials or a forced fracture. This type of analysis is cheap as the science behind it is well known.
I would say that it is very possible that IF there is a fault with the Con-Rod then Citroen would be liable despite the 3 year warranty being passed.

In relation to small claims, making such a claim against the garage/dealership will be quite hard but WORTH the effort, it will however instantly engage the provider of their Public Liability/ Prof Liability insurance. Whatever happens, best of luck with this. Whatever happens the settlement will most likely be a partial one as there are variables.
edit
and as noted below, it MAY remove the good will (risky).....UNLESS the Con-Rod is a failure of manufacture, I don't think it will fly in Small Claims.
Best Option, 2nd hand engine from a breakers.
Last edited by Stickyfinger on 27 Aug 2013, 12:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by neil123 »

Howie - I've used what is now the Small Claims Track of the County Court via MoneyClaimOnline several times, and agree it's not daunting once the hopeless IT system is circumnavigated. (and abandon hope of them ever answering the phone ...just doesn't ever happen!)

HOWEVER - on this one, I absolutely disagree with this course of action. To succeed, the OP would have to prove some negligence by the dealer.

The car survived eight and a half thousand miles after their last touch - and in the meantime has had an oil change by a man who did not provide a receipt but 'as far as he can remember' checked what oil the car needs with some third party supplier website. The engine only survived a thousand miles after his ministrations. We don't even know what filter he used - is it original Citroen? And WHO said the oil was suitable? Citroen? I suspect not.

Can you see where this is going?

It won't cost OP a lot to follow your advice - but whatever it does cost, it will cost him, as he won't win. And it will additionally and obviously cost him any hope of goodwill from Citroen or the dealer, now or in the future.

I strongly advise going another route, as I've already suggested.

Neil
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by Gethro »

Neil thanks for your comments. I understand your thoughts and am trying to negotiate with the GM not the SM. one question you may be able to give a reasoned opinion on given you history.
Why do you think they (both manufacturer and dealer) are unwilling to open up the engine and investigate or allow me to have it independently inspected without losing their contribution and all at my cost; not only that but they will not allow me to witness the removal of the failed parts and will not give me them either if I agree to the works being done: i understand why they have now given me a deadline of a week to agree or otherwise but it's frustrating when it actually could be linked to the recall?
Lets be honest, it's easy to tar the last man who touched the car, who is potentially a better mechanic because he's independent and relys on extremely high customer satsfaction to spread the word and does'nt rely on a computer system to diagnose a problem. I think I've also said before he changed the oil; I'm no mechanic but I am technically aware in my field and I can't believe a different manufacturers oil to that approved by Citroen would cause a Conrod to fail. The oil surely only needs to comply to the high standards set by BSI? I could equally question the QA of the dealer as surely they'd want to know what if anything caused this: they'd then know when the next customer turns up with similar problem.
Would appreciate your thoughts.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by oscar »

Hi if im not mistaken that's the same engine/block used in frauds as a powertrain one ifso they are very well known for a total blow up as fiesta's etc have had in low mileage engines theres many on ebay etc needing a new engine had a catastrophic engine failure so i would go and check it out and i very much doubt you will be able to get a 2nd hand engine that is anygood as most in same situation as you are.
Plus if im not mistaken they can't replace bearings as a one use bolt on them they had in the small zetecs for sure where as if you un did they sheared off not sure if carried over to the later engines.
Someone i know whose a taxi driver/PH who is really up on them all with what worked and didnt was saying about the small diesels little while ago re these problems
If it's caused by oil problem you can tell by the shell bearings plus would have had a partial seizure before blowing where as a component failure with have been almost or not without warning as sometimes get a ticking sound or vibrations then bang.
Was the car at speed when it went like on m'way or round town or pulling away.
Have someone look into it as could be a case of not fit for purpose which if the case is a big can of worms for citroen to chew through as it leaves them wide open.(Re apple with iphones in finland with condensation from ali frames)

Do you have or know a pet solicitor maybe someone from here or other forums that can look it up.

I will have a look through rest of your pages on this later but what part or where if you know was the break/failure ie rod/cap/bolts top or bottom end.and believe it or not there is so much you can find out about engine failures by someone that knows them with oil problems/over revved/bolt failure/bearing to tight/loose/overheating and many more.

One of the main reasons for thin oil is because of hydraulic followers/tensioners which pump up with thicker oils
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by citronut »

Gethro
if thery are refusing you anywhere near the car or failed parts,
they are admitting they are fully at fault and know it,

i seriously would get the car removed from there premisses as it sounds like they are trying to do a cover up
Last edited by citronut on 29 Aug 2013, 07:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by neil123 »

Gethro wrote:Neil thanks for your comments. I understand your thoughts and am trying to negotiate with the GM not the SM. one question you may be able to give a reasoned opinion on given you history.
Why do you think they (both manufacturer and dealer) are unwilling to open up the engine and investigate or allow me to have it independently inspected without losing their contribution and all at my cost; not only that but they will not allow me to witness the removal of the failed parts and will not give me them either if I agree to the works being done: i understand why they have now given me a deadline of a week to agree or otherwise but it's frustrating when it actually could be linked to the recall?
Lets be honest, it's easy to tar the last man who touched the car, who is potentially a better mechanic because he's independent and relys on extremely high customer satsfaction to spread the word and does'nt rely on a computer system to diagnose a problem. I think I've also said before he changed the oil; I'm no mechanic but I am technically aware in my field and I can't believe a different manufacturers oil to that approved by Citroen would cause a Conrod to fail. The oil surely only needs to comply to the high standards set by BSI? I could equally question the QA of the dealer as surely they'd want to know what if anything caused this: they'd then know when the next customer turns up with similar problem.
Would appreciate your thoughts.
Gethro,

I'm only guessing here, as you will appreciate. However Citroen seem to be saying in effect either let us agree not to investigate, just get it fixed and each pay a proportion, OR lets investigate and see where that leads, but the pragmatic solution of offering a 'goodwill' no profit fix will be withdrawn. Of course, if its stripped and there's irrefutable evidence of a bodge job by the dealer - I can't imagine what that might look like, to be honest, but lets say the remains of a 10mm spanner is found in there - Citroen will no doubt pay, or rather insist on the dealer paying, in full. But equally, if there isn't and it remains a mystery, or if your indie has put some unsuitable (perhaps viscosity not quality?) oil in there, aren't they entitled to say ' well we WERE prepared to do a deal, to get this sorted asap, but you chose not to accept it so now we go back to positions of strict liability' - prove it was our fault or sod off, in short?

However - two things!

The car and everything on it IS YOURS and you can do whatever you like with it, UNTIL you accept Citroen's offer, at which point they will insist , as always on the failed parts being returned to them - both ownership and physically. Always that way for warranty or goodwill claims. They offer, you accept, on those terms or not at all. They won't allow you to stand in the workshop because of real or perceived insurance, H&S and staff concerns, but if the car is to be opened up, not as a result of you accepting the goodwill offer but as part of an investigation, you're quite entitled to have someone there - eg AA or independent engineer - but again they may say they will accept the engine being stripped, but not on their premises if this is to be a litigious affair.

After all, they want their techs and workspace making money, and Citroen want to be getting on making and selling enough cars to be in a position to offer goodwill to you and others! This is a big deal to you, and understandably so, given the potential costs but very small beer to the dealer and particularly Citroen. They will have a quick go at making you happy, if they fail they will accept that you will remain sad/angry and move on, accepting also that their publicity machine is bigger than yours and there is very small chance of you pursuing this to a successful conclusion at court, and even if you do the cost to them is a mere bagatelle...!

I'm not saying it's fair, or ideal, but then again all they want is to keep you as a potential future customer. Once that possibility is obviously lost, so is their interest. That's my reading of it, for what its worth and my advice remains as before!

Also - to my eyes, given the issue of your having left the Citroen network as fast as possible once the warranty expired, let alone the possible issue re the oil change, Citroen are being quite good about this. If you can get the dealership to do as I suggested, or thereabouts, I do think that'd be fair and certainly as good as you'll get. Particularly if as I suspect, Citroen would have no intention of faffing around repairing your engine or swapping parts, they'd just supply a short motor, factory assembled and just needing the head swapped?

Hope that helps!

Oh and PS - Have you asked the GM if he will do what I suggested? What did he say, if you have?

Neil
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by oscar »

OK heres one of your failures which could be what happened to yours.http://citroenc3owners.com/diesel-citro ... -t367.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by neil123 »

Oscar - Could be. Certainly an interesting cause!

But where does that get Gethro, even if we could be sure that's what happened?

Definitely one where we'd want to know what oil it'd been running, eh?

Neil
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by howiedean »

neil123 wrote:Howie - I've used what is now the Small Claims Track of the County Court via MoneyClaimOnline several times, and agree it's not daunting once the hopeless IT system is circumnavigated. (and abandon hope of them ever answering the phone ...just doesn't ever happen!)

HOWEVER - on this one, I absolutely disagree with this course of action. To succeed, the OP would have to prove some negligence by the dealer.

The car survived eight and a half thousand miles after their last touch - and in the meantime has had an oil change by a man who did not provide a receipt but 'as far as he can remember' checked what oil the car needs with some third party supplier website. The engine only survived a thousand miles after his ministrations. We don't even know what filter he used - is it original Citroen? And WHO said the oil was suitable? Citroen? I suspect not.

Can you see where this is going?

It won't cost OP a lot to follow your advice - but whatever it does cost, it will cost him, as he won't win. And it will additionally and obviously cost him any hope of goodwill from Citroen or the dealer, now or in the future.

I strongly advise going another route, as I've already suggested.

Neil

Neil,
I get your points completely.... hence my thoughts of getting a replacement engine lined up and potentially getting that fitted (not by Citroen).
Once that is sorted I'd contemplate going down the small claims route and only when armed with evidence that points to a mechanical fault potentially caused by poor workmanship etc (cheap oil analysis, to quash the garage claims of incorrect oil used).

He needs to get prices for the jobs required and then work out if the Citroen offer is going to work in his favor. :wink:

Got to go now as I need to remove the dash from the Crown Vic to replace the heating blend door, 100deg outside and my a/c is stuck on hot.... almost as bad as the Xantia heater matrix wows. :evil:

Regards,
Howie

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Re: Conrod failure

Post by oscar »

neil123 wrote:Oscar - Could be. Certainly an interesting cause!

But where does that get Gethro, even if we could be sure that's what happened?

Definitely one where we'd want to know what oil it'd been running, eh?

Neil

The net is also littered with an injector/pump failures which have been by looks of it over filling/fueling now if thats gone on and pistons come up and hydrauliced that would blow conrod.
One thing i would love to find out has conrod broke itself or from big or little end and bolts or shell/carrier as most times they have gone is from small end with journal/gudgeon pin/piston failures and seen it cut slot through block on a race engine where it let go at high RPM's.

As could be bolt failure where they didnt do work correctly or left something in there even.

The link i posted before the guy sourced a engine quite cheaply the sold head off it so maybe have a look round think got from flea bay.

Citroen could be worried by it coming out that theres a problem so offered you deal so kept under cover etc! and is the same that frauds use found on Wikipedia so would have a good poke round net by as many people as can to see what can find out as if as like one posted up a bigger problem it gives you more strings in your bow if going to go claims route esp if there trying to hide the facts (eg USA people against HP/Compag re laptop M'board failures .known over heating failures from poor design)

I would get some pictures/have a look inside engine bay could be by AA/RAC etc you can ask/say it's so can ascertain to see if anything else is damaged around engine like rad etc so can see what will be involved and to cost it accordingly.
Which i would say you are entitled to as they could do job then later come back with bill for we had to change rad or pumps etc etc as damaged and maybe are and maybe not but wouldn't be first time tried to rake some cash back from you.

If i get time i will ask citro mech's near me to see what they have had in re this.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by neil123 »

"over filling/fueling now if thats gone on and pistons come up and hydrauliced that would blow conrod"

Ah, would it though? I must admit I don't know how much liquid it'd take to achieve a hydraulic lock on this engine, or how fast an injector could deliver that amount, but considering its only got a tiny opportunity to do so, I'd suspect its unlikely?

(Eg lets imagine Engine at say 3k rpm, so 50 rps. Compression stroke every second turn, so 12.5 per second (for that cylinder) - even if injector is somehow 'full open' rather than dribbling, could it deliver enough liquid to achieve hydraulicking in rather less than a tenth of a second? ) I dunno, but I suspect not?

However, although the technical theorising is interesting and maybe even right, for me the issue is 'How does the OP get back on wheels as quickly and painlessly as possible' and I think that doesn't involve CAB, court, EBay or scrapyard engines, DIY or Backstreet Billys... just a credit card and an acceptance that Citroen are best able to make the bad ting go away! (Even if suspecting they or their dealer may (or may not) have made it arrive anyway!) He will then have a to all intents and purposes new engine in a week's time. I can't imagine for a second the dealer wanting to 'find extra work' on what has become an intensely-scrutinised PITA job for them. The satisfaction of having a new engine will outlast the pain of paying towards it - I know I'd rather have that than a second-hand engine of unknown provenance which would still cost money to install...? Maybe its just me, but an easy, proper fix is the way I'd go.
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Re: Conrod failure

Post by howiedean »

neil123 wrote:"over filling/fueling now if thats gone on and pistons come up and hydrauliced that would blow conrod"

Ah, would it though? I must admit I don't know how much liquid it'd take to achieve a hydraulic lock on this engine, or how fast an injector could deliver that amount, but considering its only got a tiny opportunity to do so, I'd suspect its unlikely?

(Eg lets imagine Engine at say 3k rpm, so 50 rps. Compression stroke every second turn, so 12.5 per second (for that cylinder) - even if injector is somehow 'full open' rather than dribbling, could it deliver enough liquid to achieve hydraulicking in rather less than a tenth of a second? ) I dunno, but I suspect not?

However, although the technical theorising is interesting and maybe even right, for me the issue is 'How does the OP get back on wheels as quickly and painlessly as possible' and I think that doesn't involve CAB, court, EBay or scrapyard engines, DIY or Backstreet Billys... just a credit card and an acceptance that Citroen are best able to make the bad ting go away! (Even if suspecting they or their dealer may (or may not) have made it arrive anyway!) He will then have a to all intents and purposes new engine in a week's time. I can't imagine for a second the dealer wanting to 'find extra work' on what has become an intensely-scrutinised PITA job for them. The satisfaction of having a new engine will outlast the pain of paying towards it - I know I'd rather have that than a second-hand engine of unknown provenance which would still cost money to install...? Maybe its just me, but an easy, proper fix is the way I'd go.
Difficult one isn't it as this engine has already been fixed by Citroen and look where that got him, if Citroen do assist with this repair what warranty will the engine have? I guess his decision it depends on if any monies are still owed on the car and how long the gentleman wants to keep the car. What do our resident backstreet Billys think they would do if they were in this horrible predicament?
It is easy to spend other peoples hard earned cash, that said I'm not so sure that I'd be swiping my credit card or leaving a blank cheque with this garage!

Gethro, whichever way you go there are plenty of Citroen indies on the site to provide assistance.... best of luck mate. :wink:

Best Regards,

Howie

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Re: Conrod failure

Post by neil123 »

Howie, fair point mate, I just think that's the way I would go, personally.

I'd guess Citroen would give 12k /a year warranty as on any retail repair, but worth asking them!

I'm not insulting our resident Backstreet Billys, by the way - just I don't see any of them doing the fix!

Cheers

Neil
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