Gearbox Grumble? (4HP20)

[addo]

Yes, you would need to get the cable into the cabin. I'd preamp it in the engine bay, though.

[Mandrake]

Simon, I seem to recall your description of the sound being like a steel table being dragged across a floor? She did that about an hour ago, in 3rd, and it was one of the loudest too

One other thing I noticed, was that you seem to need to be on at least a slight incline for it to occur. If you're going downhill (even slightly) it won't happen.

I described it as the sound of a welded steel table being dragged across a concrete floor...

Yes mine occurred mostly up an incline - it didn't have to be a steep one either. Try to find a reasonably steep hill that you can drive up at only at 30mph in 3rd, get the rpm down around 1500 then try to accelerate. That's when it will happen the worst.

This weekend seems like it could be a good opportunity to do an oil change, as we shouldn't need the car next week if something went terribly wrong.

Nothing will go wrong though when you're careful, right ?

Unfortunately my gearbox is of the old type with the dipstick so has a very different drain and fill process from yours so I can't give you any first hand description of how to do it, but I assume you have the document from Jim.

Main points to keep in mind are:

* Don't let any foreign crap get in the funnel, that's really important. Technically you're supposed to have a fine gauze filter in the funnel as well but I never bothered.

* Don't start the engine with the oil drained, even for a few seconds. Make sure you have enough access (ramps if needed) before draining as you won't be able to start the car again until its topped up no less than about half a litre below the correct level.

* The temperature must be just right when checking the oil level.

* The car must be on absolutely level ground with the suspension at normal height for the final check of level.

[Ben82]

Simon, I seem to recall your description of the sound being like a steel table being dragged across a floor? She did that about an hour ago, in 3rd, and it was one of the loudest too

One other thing I noticed, was that you seem to need to be on at least a slight incline for it to occur. If you're going downhill (even slightly) it won't happen.

I described it as the sound of a welded steel table being dragged across a concrete floor...

Yes mine occurred mostly up an incline - it didn't have to be a steep one either. Try to find a reasonably steep hill that you can drive up at only at 30mph in 3rd, get the rpm down around 1500 then try to accelerate. That's when it will happen the worst.

Well I think we have enough similar symptoms to say your (previous) issue and mine are the same thing... worryingly mine is at far less mileage, so I hope it's not a sign of it failing soon!

This weekend seems like it could be a good opportunity to do an oil change, as we shouldn't need the car next week if something went terribly wrong.

Nothing will go wrong though when you're careful, right ?

Indeed, my worries lie in the "what if" scenarios. It would probably all go fine. I have a habit though of panicing when things start to go wrong and invariably make them worse

Unfortunately my gearbox is of the old type with the dipstick so has a very different drain and fill process from yours so I can't give you any first hand description of how to do it, but I assume you have the document from Jim.

I have the one from DocBackup, which Jim has said is the same one

Main points to keep in mind are:

* Don't let any foreign crap get in the funnel, that's really important. Technically you're supposed to have a fine gauze filter in the funnel as well but I never bothered.

Yup, that's one of my main concerns... but I assume with the slowness of the intake of it, if I notice anything drop in the funnel I can pinch the tube and get it drained.

* Don't start the engine with the oil drained, even for a few seconds. Make sure you have enough access (ramps if needed) before draining as you won't be able to start the car again until its topped up no less than about half a litre below the correct level.

* The temperature must be just right when checking the oil level.

* The car must be on absolutely level ground with the suspension at normal height for the final check of level.

For the last point I'm pretty sure there's been people on here who have done it on the C5 with it being on service high without issue.

For level ground, left to right I know the C5 is perfectly level in the garage (this is what I meant earlier in the thread, the C5 seemed "lop sided" with the distance between the arches and the wheels, but a spirit level on the boot showed it was level), not sure about back to front, but can check with the spirit level.

Temperature I know about so will have the lexia with me the whole time. Still find it a bit odd.... get it up to 55C, unscrew the drain cap.. it should have a stream that turns into a drip around 60C. if that happens it's the correct level.

Once I've done it once successfully it'll be less of a worry

[Ben82]

Hopefully have all the bits I need now just waiting now for the engine/gearbox to cool down.

Only thing I don't have from the document is a 18mm drift to hammer the plug back in, but hopefully I I can just use an extender from my toolkit or so.

So I have out and ready:
5l of LT71141
the dish pan. (which coincidentally has litre markings )
Waste oil container for taking it down the tip.
screwdriver to get the jubilee clip off the airbox hose, so I can get that out.
funnel set and a piece of tubing (my filling kit). (I wonder if the smallest funnel might fit in anyway, but we shall see).
Kitchen Towel to mop anything up..
my 2 3l measuring jugs
glass vials for oil comparison
8mm draim plug key.
hammer.

I have checked a spirit level on the driver's door sill on Service High, and it is level

Probably need to wait a few more hours for the car to cool down.

[addo]

Big bit of cardboard under the car, won't go astray.

[Ben82]

So got the air box out the cap was covered in oil!


Another sign that someone may have already changed the oil? Or just me being paranoid?

What's the worst the can happen if I drain it and fill with LT71141 if someone has put another oil in it? I don't think there's anyone here that can flush the gearbox properly so I'm guessing ill be screwed either way!

[Mandrake]

Take a picture of the colour of the oil you drain out in one of your sample jars. Normal LT71141 is translucent yellow, most (but not all) Dexron oils are cherry red.

If its dirty it will most likely be black either way! Don't panic if you think the wrong stuff is in there, worst case scenario is that you might need to do 3-4 changes spaced over a couple of months, 4 changes is almost as good as a flush from what I can see as that got mine from pure black to bright clear yellow.

[Ben82]

Thanks Simon. Just been out to try to do a level check, got everything in place. Gearbox up to 54C, and thought i'd get under the car to start on the drain plug..... and I can't fit far enough under the car to undo the drain plug - almost at full arms length so can't really turn it well.

I can probably do a drain and refill using the ramps. But can't do the level check, which want to do the first so I can eliminate that as part of the issue.

Not sure what else I can do, I'd rather not skip it, even if i did drain and refill with the exact same amount.

I guess either: if I got 2 more identical axle stands I could jack the car up further and have it on 4 to be able to fit underneath. (Though it seems like the documentation for the ones from lidl say not to use more than 2 axle stands!) or could potentially take it to the indy tomorrow morning and see if they'll let me borrow their lift to do it (unlikely, unless I get them to do it and pay them some £££ - SEK doesn't have a symbol )

Any other ideas?

[Mandrake]

Not sure that I have a good answer for you Ben, is it only the drain plug that you can't reach with the car on the ground, or is the level plug inaccessible as well ?

If its only the drain plug you could do what I used to do - drive it up on to ramps (suspension up) to drain the sump, put the sump plug back in, then PULL the car off the ramps in neutral without starting the engine. (Depending on how steep your ramp is you may need the suspension in high to clear the ramp, I do on mine unless I use ramp extenders) I do this with one foot in the drivers side ready to press the brake to catch it when it starts rolling down the ramp.

Then you have the car back on level ground to fill and check the level. As I say, mine was a dipstick so the filling and level checking was then done through the top of the engine bay - easy peasy. I don't know where the level plug is on yours and how accessible it is with the car at normal ground level. Perhaps Jim knows as I think he has one with a level plug ?

[Ben82]

Now I should be more embarrassed!!

I thought the drain hole was the same as the oil level hole! probably lucky I couldn't reach the drain one very well! I did think the instructions seemed a bit strange with using the drain hole for level checking. That could have been rather bad.

Along with this pic looking not really like the actual drain plug:


Will have to see if I can find that level plug then (haven't seen anything obvious though it could be covered in oil like the top cap) Hopefully it's more accessible, and I can still do it without spending more money.

EDIT: AHA, I found out where the confusion has came from: http://www.xantiav6.co.uk/forum/AL4%20Oil%20Change.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The AL4 has the drain/level plug as part of the same thing. I must have got it in my head that the 4HP20 had the same thing

[Mandrake]

The sump drain plug should be right at the bottom like the sump drain plug on an engine. The level plug is usually a few inches up the side of the gearbox, but as I say I don't know exactly where it is as I don't have the later version of the gearbox with the level plug. (I think they switched to level plugs instead of dipsticks around 1999 on the Xantia, so mine is one of the last dipstick versions of the 4HP20, thankfully, given the number of oil changes I've done! )

[Ben82]

Thanks Simon, I think I know where it might be, as I think I recognise that cross member in the pic, as I was wondering if it could be used to place the axle stand under (decided against it in the end anyway), so that should give me a reference point to check. If I have time I might go and check it out at lunch time.

[Mandrake]

That pipe in the foreground is one of the exhaust down pipes too, that should help locate it!

[Ben82]

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Think I've found it (well a bolt all on it's lonesome ) Probably should have re-looked at my print out with the image above on to get the right angle of it. Pretty sure that's an O2 sensor in the foreground in the 2nd pic. 1st one shows where it is in relation to the drain plug.

That should be reachable

[Mandrake]

I can see the drain plug on the left hand side in the first picture (not visible in the other two pictures) but I can't see anything else that looks like a level plug Ben ? Can anyone else see one ? Perhaps draw a circle around what you think is the level plug.

PS because your images are close cropped and the camera is at a various different angles its a bit hard to identify which way is up, which way is front and back etc