Diesel pump sprocket and timing Question

[spider]

Timing Holes: I think we really need to see some pictures to determine exactly what is going on with this.

Plunger: I've only ever taken the plunger out once when it was seized in and I found it a royal pain to get back together. The dealer workshop (I know I was there!) regard them as 'sealed' btw, if its seized its replaced and they are not cheap. Out of maybe a few 100 XUD belts, apart from mine that I repaired by drilling into the mounting to desieze it I only replaced one that I found seized on a customer car as that was the only "choice" in the workshop. The only time it needs to come out is if its seized or you're changing the tensioner with the arm on it.

[Old-Guy]

Plunger: The first time I changed the belt, it was at 67,000 miles and 11½ years - just in time. The tensioner bearing was starting to fling a little lubricant so it would have been foolish not to change it. The second time, no choice as the belt was only being changed at 46,000 miles and 6 years because the head gasket was leaking oil (not much) into the cooling system. The cast bracket (that houses the plunger) has to come off to get the head off.

Re-fitting the plunger the first time was a total pig as I had to work out a way to do it. I must have dropped the plunger and spring on the floor 5 or 6 times at least. Second time around knowing exactly how to do it, really no problem at all - first time, exactly as described above.

Back to John's problem: Before lifting the head to check the valves, it's worth checking that the the crank-shaft sprocket's Woodruff key is still in place and undamaged. Ditto camshaft sprocket key. If a key is missing or sheared, the sprocket and shaft won't be in the correct angular alignment. If you do decide to lift the head, I can offer some advice based on very recent experience.

[John Plum]

Yes, I next moved on to check the sprockets and keys were sound together.

Then, I thought I should not be sure of the crank alignment. I have gad to correct it the cam now spins freely.

There is a white mark on the crank Pinion, no reciprocal mark on the casing I could see. But I read somewhere on the forum thus should be about 10 o clock, and that's what I had, the alignment bolt appeared to be deep home in its hole. But it wasn't. It was in a slot.

With the help of an assistant we found a proper alignment hole in flywheel,( setting the white mark on crank pinion at about 8 o clock). I checked again to see if any other holes appeared - the rest were just slots in the flywheel.
So, I think I have it.

If so, then the belt had jumped about 11 teeth.

Hopefully no valve damage. But I guess valves must have hit pistons.

The tensioner plunger and spring seem to operate OK. Perhaps a little lubrication at the locking nut might help.

I'll get the belt on, and give it a go.
If anyone wants to tell me wether I should check my crank alignment more, somehow, please go ahead before I continue tomorrow!
Cheers.

[Old-Guy]

Glad to hear your conundrum is now resolved, John.

Something that certainly didn't occur to me is that your's has an Auto box; so no conventional flywheel, but a torque converter instead with no flat back face. Another correction to my procedure.

I think you may have got away with it. My understanding is that with the XUD, it's generally the cam bearing caps that suffer if pistons and valves collide. Perhaps someone with direct experience would care to add their two-pen'orth.

[citroenxm]

If the Pin is in the crank... Thats the piston / crank timing done..

Turn the Cam so the pin / M8 Bolt hole lines up at 4 Oclock NOT oclock as you found... thats the cam timed..

The Fuel pump is timed at around 4 - 5 oclock too!!

IF you cannot turn the Cam shaft FULL turn, dont panic, the valves lift INTO piston terriotry.. this means that if the pistons are at TDC then valves 1 and 2 and 7 and 8 CANNOT open ... you need to remove the crank pin, turn the crank about 10 degrese, NOW set the Cam shaft to 4 oclock Timing, and re set the crank to TDC...

Fit the belt from Cam to Fuel pump then down to crank and slack over water pump and spring tensioner

THERE SHOULD BE NO SLACK BETWEN THE CAM, FUEL PUMP OR CRANK pullys!!!!!

Release the tensioner to take all the slack.... tighten the tensioner.... Make sure all timing pins fit nicely... fit the bottom pully and fit the crank bolt. WARNING: MAKE SURE you apply some Thread Lock to the Bolt and tighten it with the crank LOCKING PIN STILL IN PLACE.. Use an extesnion bar and tighten it with ALL YOUR WEIGHT

I empersise this because if the crank bolt is NOT tight enough and comes loose in service, the crank pully will batter the bolt, and it WILL sieze inside the crank shaft!! BELEVE me, been here three times now, but NOT on a car Ive done!!

Where are you John, London or up here north wales???

[citronut]

there is a visual for getting the crank more or less in line,
look at the end of the engine just above the crank sprocket there is a small square block, if you line the rear edge of the crank woodruf key up with the front edge of the raised block the crank might just need slight movmenyt one way or the other the get the peg into the flywheel,

also you should not relly on the peg locking the flywheel to undo the crank pulley bolt,
if the peg bends you will be stuffed,

[citroenxm]

Just to make a point.. I do not use a locking peg.. I use a good quality 6mm Allen key short reach type which is perfect fit and they don't or shouldn't bend and of all the 60 odd xud I have done never had a bend or issue.. I don't lock the crank to undo.. I use the method of extension bar on the floor and flick the starter.. Never failed yet..

I leave the Allen key in to tighten the crank bolt other wise you will NEVER get it tight enough to risk it undo ing...

[John Plum]

What do you think is the problem i have?
Having found the only 7mm timing hole in the flywheel, pinned it there, while I observed cam to turn all the way round. Pinned the cam at 4 o clock to the 8mm threaded hole, observed the crank to turn all the way round, then pinned the timing on the cam, pump and flywheel and refitted belt.
Now, the cam/ pistons snags up when the cam moves to 6 0 clock.

I need to be sure the flywheel is correctly set of course. I've done my best.

[citroenxm]

Flywheel can Only be set at TDC on one position only when using the locking hole...

However I have heard that there is another timing hole that can be mistaken for tdc..

If you have lost reference to piston tdc you may have a job.. Being a idi engine you can't even remove an injector to feel for tdc with a rod..

I ask again are you in North Wales or London if your in North Wales I could possibly help you...

[citronut]

John
read my last post/reply,

because it tells you how you can be sure the crank is in the correct position by looking at the woodruf key in the crank sprocket

[Sean602]

woodruff key and block clear in this photo


DSC00491 by Sean602, on Flickr

[citronut]

good picy Sean
thats exactly as i described, sometimes just need to rock the crank slightly to engage the timing pin into the flywheel

[John Plum]

@citronxm Concerning the valves lifting INTO piston territory. I had done what you suggested to get cam set, So, If I finally had TDC when fitting new belt, the cam should turn with crank; it didn't, which means bent valves or wrong TDC.
I shall make one more check using the visual info given by you good folk.....

@ citronut, @citroenxm, @Saun602: This info to confirm correct flywheel timing is just what I need.
I'll try again, checking woodruff key against what I last had for crank timing.

Thanks for helping me, here - with my doubt about setting a crank, having lost the timing. Especially as a car is so essential in North Wales, with children.

@citroenxm. I am in North Wales, as per our text conversation. Off with children on train for visit to Uncle, back on Monday, when I'll get in touch. Thanks for offer of help with head and valves.
John

[citroenxm]

No problem john.. Should have time next week from Tuesday onwards.. Bank holiday Monday means family time with us..
Cheers

[John Plum]

Best wishes for a Happy Easter Hols.