Time for a new Battery?

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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by bobins »

DickieG wrote:to correctly test a battery you really need to use a "Midtronics" battery tester, PSA recommend their own model called the EXP 925 and in just a minute or two you will have the definitive answer about the condition of the battery. Interestingly on newer cars such as my X7 C5 there is a procedure in Lexia for battery replacement where the car needs to be informed of the specification and actual performance of the new battery by way of readings taken from the Midtronics tester
Having delved into my Lexia/Diagbox in the past in connection with my C5(X7), isn't there a procedure via Diagbox using a series of 'turn this on, turn that off, stand on one leg, etc' to determine the battery's condition for anyone without the Midtronics device ? Does this also work with new battery installations ?
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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bobins wrote:Having delved into my Lexia/Diagbox in the past in connection with my C5(X7), isn't there a procedure via Diagbox using a series of 'turn this on, turn that off, stand on one leg, etc' to determine the battery's condition for anyone without the Midtronics device ? Does this also work with new battery installations ?
As far as I've been able to determine with Diagbox on a X7 C5 once you get into the replacement battery menu you run into a brick wall without a Midtronics tool as Diagbox requires information from the unit, I tried skipping this point but couldn't get any further without it.

Midtronic battery testers aren't unique to PSA (apart from the EXP 925), it appears that the company have taken battery testing to a new level and have been declared as the industry standard battery tester and are recommended by many motor manufacturers.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by bobins »

DickieG wrote:As far as I've been able to determine with Diagbox on a X7 C5 once you get into the replacement battery menu you run into a brick wall without a Midtronics tool as Diagbox requires information from the unit, I tried skipping this point but couldn't get any further without it.
I wonder if just replacing the battery on a C5X7 then going through the Diagbox's in built battery self test procedure would have the same effect as going through Diagbox's battery replacement procedure using the Midtronics tester ?
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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bobins wrote:I wonder if just replacing the battery on a C5X7 then going through the Diagbox's in built battery self test procedure would have the same effect as going through Diagbox's battery replacement procedure using the Midtronics tester ?
IIRC the Diagbox procedure you describe involves using a Midtronics tester after having turned things on/off, scratched behind your left ear etc, later in the week (once I've sorted out a head gasket job on another car) I'll have another play and see what I discover.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by bobins »

DickieG wrote:IIRC the Diagbox procedure you describe involves using a Midtronics tester after having turned things on/off, scratched behind your left ear etc,
I think there's an option to check the battery condition using Diagbox without the Midtronics. ISTR it was something along the lines of..... checking the battery and/or voltage using Midtronics tester -> click here if Midtronics tester not available. You were then presented with a few procedures along the lines of: turn ignition on, turn lights on for 10 minutes, don't open or close doors, sing La Marseillaise at the top of your voice, etc. There was no option using this route to connect a Midtronics tester. This would have been using Diagbox somewhere around v6.20. It was a few months ago that I experimented with this technique, so not all of the procedures may be accurate :wink:
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Mandrake »

DickieG wrote:
Mandrake wrote:
DickieG wrote:Rather than faff about with standard volt/amp meters, to correctly test a battery you really need to use a "Midtronics" battery tester, PSA recommend their own model called the EXP 925 and in just a minute or two you will have the definitive answer about the condition of the battery.
Good grief, talk about getting over technical. :roll: How much exactly does this single purpose "Midtronics battery tester" cost ?
Not as much as you presumably think, i.e. Less than the cost of two car batteries, money well spent in my books as I'll know in advance whether a battery is on it's way out so I'll avoid a non-start situation plus I won't waste money replacing perfectly good batteries.
If you want to spend £350 on a fancy battery tester be my guest. I bought a whole Xantia for slightly more than that. :lol:

In over 20 years of motoring I"ve only ever had to replace two car batteries, and only one of those actually died, the other one just got a bit iffy. I don't buy new cars either, apart from my previous Xantia bought at 8 all my other cars have been 10 years or older when I bought them. It's just not a common problem that warrants a £350 tester that may be used once in a blue moon. The money would be better spent on a good quality battery.
If only it was that simple Simon, Multimeters cannot tell you whether a cell collapses only under load hence why the Midtronics tool was developed.

The battery in my C5 passed all the tests you suggest plus a specific gravity test with a hydrometer but under load when starting a cell was starting to collapse, the Midtronics tool took all of 10 seconds to diagnose the fault and that included fitting the crocodile clips :-D
I don't think you quite follow my test procedure - although I suggested measuring the static voltage of the battery after it has sat that's not the key factor, the battery is inferred to be faulty by a process of elimination, not by directly measuring it as faulty.

Lead acid batteries use constant voltage charging so measuring the voltage while charging is enough to determine whether the charging system is behaving as it should. Measuring current drain while the car is turned off will eliminate the possibility of some accessory discharging the battery. If the problem is still there by a process of elimination we know its a problem with the performance of the battery.

I'm sure that tool does a wonderful job of measuring the exact performance of the battery and is a godsend to a working mechanic who needs an accurate result and fast to bill a customer for a battery and get on with the next job, but its hardly an essential DIY tool at that price as you implied.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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Back to my issue :)
Do wonder whether a Midtronics will be handy in my situation, as I'm starting to think it maybe down to the coldness, it's been above freezing today and the problem has been less apparent.

Anyway back to actually testing, read the Volts after going out for a drive tonight (shops and a quick stint down the motorway), 12.78V, hopefully will have time to read it in the morning.

One n00b question, how do you get the clamps off on the C5 battery? I'm used to a 8mm bolt, these seem to have what seems like a rather complex (to me - in reality it's probably really simple) clip system, didn't want to fiddle, just in case I broke something, or disconnected the battery a bit too easily. :lol:
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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Mandrake wrote:If you want to spend £350 on a fancy battery tester be my guest. I bought a whole Xantia for slightly more than that. :lol:
Crikey who said I paid anything near £350 :? I said for less than the price of two batteries so half of the figure you quote, heavens knows how much you pay for car batteries Simon :lol:
Mandrake wrote:I don't think you quite follow my test procedure - although I suggested measuring the static voltage of the battery after it has sat that's not the key factor, the battery is inferred to be faulty by a process of elimination, not by directly measuring it as faulty.
I've tried every test procedure you suggested in addition to using a hydrometer and the battery passed each one with flying colours, you'll just have to accept that as fact I'm afraid, the bottom line is that with the proper tools a correct diagnosis can be made thereby eliminating red herrings such as is the car suffering from a wiring fault under load, faulty starter, the list goes on and on.

I bought the Midtronics tester after observing a similar one in operation and realised just how useful it is especially when I have five cars in my household in addition to numerous others I work on, absolute bargain at the price I paid :-D
Ben82 wrote:Back to my issue :)
Do wonder whether a Midtronics will be handy in my situation, as I'm starting to think it maybe down to the coldness, it's been above freezing today and the problem has been less apparent.
Well it gives you an instant result so it would be of assistance, most decent car repair garages will have similar tools now so it might be worth exploring whether you can get this test done for a nominal fee.
Ben82 wrote:One n00b question, how do you get the clamps off on the C5 battery? I'm used to a 8mm bolt, these seem to have what seems like a rather complex (to me - in reality it's probably really simple) clip system, didn't want to fiddle, just in case I broke something, or disconnected the battery a bit too easily. :lol:
Not sure what clamps you have fitted, they may be the version where you lift an arm on the clamp which releases the clamps grip around the battery post.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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DickieG wrote: Well it gives you an instant result so it would be of assistance, most decent car repair garages will have similar tools now so it might be worth exploring whether you can get this test done for a nominal fee.
Will have to ask around, I doubt my Cit Specialist has one, since they don't even have a lexia! Might try emailing the stealers, to see if they do.
DickieG wrote: Not sure what clamps you have fitted, they may be the version where you lift an arm on the clamp which releases the clamps grip around the battery post.
Looked a bit like this on the 17th, I've cleaned it up more since then (still not perfect as haven't taken the clamp off to give it a proper clean). That pic was to show the build up of stuff around the negative terminal.. will try taking a better picture tomorrow of the clamp.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by myglaren »

Just lift the green/black plastic tag and the clamp will release Ben - very simple and easy.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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myglaren wrote:Just lift the green/black plastic tag and the clamp will release Ben - very simple and easy.
Lol, that simple? Thanks. Didn't really consider that as the clamp release but for something else (for what? I'm not sure). Will have to have a fiddle tomorrow and probably feel rather stupid at the same time :lol:
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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Ben82 wrote:probably feel rather stupid at the same time :lol:
This!

Anyway, hopefully can do the parasite draw test at lunch.... The issue very much is related to low voltage.... this morning was 12.4V, it started fine no issues, however after about 5 mins, I had to turn the engine off, to go see what was taking my daughter so long to get gloves on and out the door... When starting the engine again, the issue appeared.

Didn't stop the engine when dropping her off, and checked the voltage when getting back..... and it's back up to 12.8V.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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Started happening again today, not surprised since we've had -5C again, I was kind of hoping the "unexpected reboot" from Tuesday (when trying t odo the parasite draw test) would have cured it, but nope....
I guess I can eliminate something draining the battery by seeing whether the car will start when I get back on the 10th. As leaving it a week vs overnight should deplete the battery. Might leave the bonnet unlocked just in case :)
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

Post by Ben82 »

So after a week of the car sitting still, had exactly the same as my previous post, ~-5C, started but with the funky dash, guess we can eliminate something drawing power when the car is off, as I would have expected it to be fairly dead after a week.
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Re: Time for a new Battery?

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Finally got the answer to this today.....
Dropped daughter off at school, then went to Citroen to get replacement licence plate parts (mine had got brittle and snapped when trying to take it off to replace the bulbs)...

Went back out to the car, didn't start (just went "click click click" when trying to turn over)..... "Bad Battery" was their explanation, they came out with a jump start thing, worked fine.
Had to make a choice then, either get them to replace the battery or go back to the other place where I had issues with the replacement battery.
It was more expensive to have it done at Citroen (obviously, and the battery didn't have as good CCA), but I think slightly worthwhile, they changed the battery, tried starting, didn't start (same issue as the other place), he checked it out, seems the negative connector is missing a bit making a bad connection, he said that's probably worth fixing at the next service or so.

One thing that the new battery has taught me, is this V6 seems to have a very short crank, I don't think I've ever had her, or any of my previous cars crank so fast.

Just hope my instrument panel issue goes away now :) Will certainly find out later, it's -7C today.
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