Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

andy5
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 438
Joined: 05 Nov 2010, 13:40
Location:
My Cars:
x 104

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by andy5 »

Despite what people are saying about having the better tyres on the front, plus the intuitive feeling that if the road is wet the fronts are clearing tracks that the rears will follow in, all advice is that the better tyres should go on the back.

The first time I read this I thought it was a mistake. However one of the country's largest tyre fitters and wholesalers confirmed it, and so did Michelin when I phoned for advice about tyre size and winter tyres and threw this query into the conversation as well

There was one time I bought 4 new tyres at once (including adding a 6th wheel), but since then I put new ones on the rear for about 25 to 28,000 miles and then they do the same again on the front. The brand doesn't come into it as the car has only ever had Michelins bar finishing off 2 Contis it came with
Northern_Mike

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by Northern_Mike »

andy5 wrote:Despite what people are saying about having the better tyres on the front, plus the intuitive feeling that if the road is wet the fronts are clearing tracks that the rears will follow in, all advice is that the better tyres should go on the back.

The first time I read this I thought it was a mistake. However one of the country's largest tyre fitters and wholesalers confirmed it
Well seeing as they make more money out of you, if you replace 4 or 5 tyres regularly, they would, wouldn't they?
User avatar
bobins
Donor 2023
Posts: 5697
Joined: 05 Jul 2012, 18:07
Location: Midhurst, West Sussex
My Cars: Kia Sportage
Mazda BT-50
Land Rover SIII SWB
V-F-R800
SL320
MX5
x 2871

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by bobins »

I think what the tyre marketing campaign says is actually quite true - new tyres on the back will help prevent aquaplaning when going round corners at increased speeds - that seems fairly logical to me. What they don't say is by how much your stopping distance is increased when you need to do emergency braking in a straight line in wet conditions with your worn tyres on the front. Neither do they say how modern cars with their traction and stability control cope with the new vs old tyres on front vs back. If you spend your time driving in the wet in wild swerving movements then I'd think that - if you've only got one pair of new tyres to hand - putting them on the back is a damn good idea, if - like most motorists - you're just an average driver doing average things, you might be better with the new tyres on the front. The need for new tyres on the rear must, in part, come down to driving style.
Putting my cynical hat on, I'd guess that the "put new tyres on the rear" advice - whilst perfectly true in certain circumstances - is an end result of market research showing that your average motorist is more concerned about their front tyres than rears, and Big Tyre Company(tm) then deciding that they want to sell more tyres to your average middle income family, but the problem is middle income family will spend their money on 4 new budget tyres as opposed 2 new premium tyres...... so marketing man comes up with a jolly weeze to make mr average motorist a little more aware of the need to put new tyres on the rear - and if they're only going to buy two premium tyres they can go on the back..... then the front ones wear out in a couple of months time and they are then replaced with premium ones as well. As I say though - I am being a little (lot?) cynical, and I do think that - in certain circumstances - new tyres on the rear are a good idea. :-D
Sadly no longer a C5 owner :(
Bannedbiker
Posts: 92
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 18:52
Location: Wymondham, Norfolk
My Cars: 2003 Peugeot 307 1.6S
1997 Eunos Roadster
x 3

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by Bannedbiker »

I still think that fitting new tyres to the front wheels of a front wheel drive car is the most logical thing to do.

Most of the weight is at the front of the car, the end that does both the driving and steering.

During braking the inertia transfers the weight forward to the front wheels, I think its 70% of the braking is done by the front wheels.

The front tyres wear quicker than the rear meaning they must be doing more work than the rear.

I could go on but on my Xantia I'm happier with the better tyres on the front wheels.

I know it felt a lot more secure on wet roundabouts today with better tyres on the front.

If I was to take it on a race track i'd have replaced all 4 tyres with the same make but as the 2 budget tyres I've moved to the rear are hardly worn it seems silly to ditch them. Also I'm broke!!! :-D
2003 Peugeot 307, 1.6 petrol.
Previously owned 1999 Citroen Xantia 1.9 td and a 1997 Citroen ZX 1.9
Northern_Mike

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by Northern_Mike »

[quote="bobins"]I think what the tyre marketing campaign says is actually quite true - new tyres on the back will help prevent aquaplaning when going round corners at increased speeds - that seems fairly logical to me. What they don't say is by how much your stopping distance is increased when you need to do emergency braking in a straight line in wet conditions with your worn tyres on the front. Neither do they say how modern cars with their traction and stability control cope with the new vs old tyres on front vs back. If you spend your time driving in the wet in wild swerving movements then I'd think that - if you've only got one pair of new tyres to hand - putting them on the back is a damn good idea, if - like most motorists - you're just an average driver doing average things, you might be better with the new tyres on the front. The need for new tyres on the rear must, in part, come down to driving style.
/quote]

Yes, either driving like a knob, provoking lift-off oversteer a lot, or simply not being able to drive at all :-D
Northern_Mike

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by Northern_Mike »

Bannedbiker wrote:[

Mine's an Eunos too, 1997 1.8 litre. I found the standard suspension too stiff so fitted standard units from a 1999 Mk2 Mx5. I found that along with being a bit more comfy (still no limo, it's a sports car after all :twisted: ) it allowed the wheels to follow little bumps rather than skip over them. Doesn't roll anymore in bends either.

On an old Suzuki GSXR 750 I had some years ago someone thought it would handle better if they stiffened the suspension fully up as far as the settings would allow. It was great in a straight line but show it a corner and it didn't want to know. Made my bottom go like a rabbits nose a few times, I can tell you!!!! :-D

I take it you don't still have your 2nd Eunos then Mike?
Hah, no , it went away when our son, who's now 3 arrived. I briefly had a MK1 MX5 again in the summer. Bought a cheap one to see if I still liked them. I didn't. There's something that kids bring along that make you think about your own mortality a lot more, so like 'bikes, I have consigned little Japanese roadsters to the "been there, done that" category of life.. I'm quite happy pottering around in the C5 and Berlingo(Surprisingly good fun if driven hard!) for now, but I'll have a proper Impreza WRX STi one day, when I'm sane enough to own one.
Bannedbiker
Posts: 92
Joined: 15 Apr 2012, 18:52
Location: Wymondham, Norfolk
My Cars: 2003 Peugeot 307 1.6S
1997 Eunos Roadster
x 3

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by Bannedbiker »

That's too bad about the Mx5 but I do know how you feel in a way.
I sold a Kawasaki ZX9R earlier this year. I'd owned it for 7 years but with the way things are on the roads now I decided to sell it and get the Eunos.
Then in August I thought it would be a good idea to get another bike, a 1993 Yamaha YZF750 with 12,000 miles on the clock. But it's not the same, I don't feel half as happy as I did before so I can see me selling the Yamaha next year.

Agree with you about a Berlingo, had to drive an old non turbo one some years ago and thought it was great.
2003 Peugeot 307, 1.6 petrol.
Previously owned 1999 Citroen Xantia 1.9 td and a 1997 Citroen ZX 1.9
Northern_Mike

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by Northern_Mike »

I had a CBR600 and Fireblade many moons ago. I fell off. It hurt. Not a lot, but enough to decide that as we had a nipper on the way, I preferred all my faculties as they were, and the roads were getting too risky! I borrowed a CBR1100XX Blackbird in 2009 for a few days. I rode it once and scared myself witless. That was enough for me. Not been on one since.

Berlingo 2.0HDI, it's a bit slow, but it really is fun. I used a non-turbo one as a company van back in 1998, did over 70k in 14months in it. Brilliant van. Funnily enough, if you caned it hard enough it was almost as fast as the 2.0 Multispace.
Eddie Nuff
New User
Posts: 464
Joined: 15 Nov 2012, 20:31
Location: Yorkshire
My Cars:
x 39

Post by Eddie Nuff »

Rattiva_Mike wrote:
bobins wrote:The need for new tyres on the rear must, in part, come down to driving style.
Yes, either driving like a knob, provoking lift-off oversteer a lot, or simply not being able to drive at all :-D
That must be me then as I always fit new tyres to the rear. Bought two new Maxxis tyres 4 years ago.
40k later and with 4 - 5mm on them they've gone on the front and two new Maxxis on the rear.
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25366
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
Location: Washington
My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX
x 4888

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by myglaren »

Me too. (^^)
Exiting this roundabout, as I used to do every morning, usually at around 50mph along with the rest of the traffic going my way but this particular morning only 40 mph, no other traffic on the road.
The car (Accord) wouldn't straighten up, just continued turning and went into a spin. Rotated three times and was brought to a halt by impacting a huge traffic sign and almost flattening it, adding to previous damage caused by similar circumstances. Bumper and boot lid crumpled but still usable and passed MOT three days later.

My son in law had had the same thing happen to him in a Mini about a year prior to my incident but had continued backwards up the sliproad on the left almost to the next roundabout.

I was advised by the MOT centre that tested the car and naturally enquired about the damage that although the rear tyres were legal that new and better quality tyres on the rear would have precluded the collision.
Took their advice and have had no further problems, either with that or the subsequent 2 C5s.
andy5
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 438
Joined: 05 Nov 2010, 13:40
Location:
My Cars:
x 104

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by andy5 »

Rattiva_Mike wrote:
andy5 wrote:Despite what people are saying about having the better tyres on the front, plus the intuitive feeling that if the road is wet the fronts are clearing tracks that the rears will follow in, all advice is that the better tyres should go on the back.

The first time I read this I thought it was a mistake. However one of the country's largest tyre fitters and wholesalers confirmed it
Well seeing as they make more money out of you, if you replace 4 or 5 tyres regularly, they would, wouldn't they?
I realise my post might have been boring, but you could at least have read it to the end

In fact I've only replaced all 4 tyres at once twice in half a million miles or so, so that comment doesn't really apply to me.

I don't quite understand what the point being made is anyway, as proportionate wear rates at front and rear will be the same whatever plan is used.
Rattiva_Mike wrote:
bobins wrote: The need for new tyres on the rear must, in part, come down to driving style.
Yes, either driving like a knob, provoking lift-off oversteer a lot, or simply not being able to drive at all :-D
There's no need to reduce the discussion towards criticising people's intelligence or their driving abilities.

I merely pointed out that most professional advice is put the new ones on the rear. And other people have posted links which include discussion and videos which amply demonstrate that.

We aren't all highly skilled racing or rally drivers. So for the majority understeer tends to be easier to control than the back end breaking away.
mirafioriman
Posts: 356
Joined: 15 Jan 2011, 23:35
Location:
My Cars:

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by mirafioriman »

I do and always will put the new tyres on the front if I'm replacing two. If the rear breaks away you are simply driving too fast (assuming the rear tyres are in suitable condition to still be in use)

It's like my (sadly now deceased-natural causes!) driving instructor used to say, there are no bad bends just bad drivers.

And it's much easier to control a car where the rear breaks away as you still have steering. If the front wheels lose grip then you're stuffed as there is literally nothing you can do to control the direction of the car except hope the front wheels regain grip.
Last edited by mirafioriman on 29 Dec 2012, 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
Former Proud owner of a 1994 Citroen Xantia 1.9d and BX 19RD

Now driving an Alfa 159 but god I miss the Xantia!
andy5
(Donor 2022)
Posts: 438
Joined: 05 Nov 2010, 13:40
Location:
My Cars:
x 104

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by andy5 »

mirafioriman wrote: And it's much easier to control a car where the rear brakes away as you still have steering.
I'll try to remember that the next time an example of the ultimate driving machine spins in front of me on a roundabout, and I stop and then drive around it
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by DickieG »

mirafioriman wrote:And it's much easier to control a car where the rear brakes away as you still have steering. If the front wheels lose grip then you're stuffed as there is literally nothing you can do to control the direction of the car except hope the front wheels regain grip.
That's not entirely true on a front wheel drive car because if you lose the rear end on a FWD car you really will struggle to get it back under control due to the weight distribution invariably making the car very nose heavy so when the rear breaks away it can be very vicious requiring good anticipation, lightening reactions and a fair degree of car handling skill to get the car back in line.

As for not being able to do anything about understeer well that's a myth, ever heard of lift-off oversteer?
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
mirafioriman
Posts: 356
Joined: 15 Jan 2011, 23:35
Location:
My Cars:

Re: Oh crap, I've broken it!!!!!

Post by mirafioriman »

I never mentioned understeer, what I said was if the front wheels lose grip, ie have none at all. Then you can't control the car as you have no steering. If the rear breaks away at least you can use the steering to try and do something about it.

You can dress it up any way you like if the car slides you are going too fast for the road, conditions, vehicle etc. I'm not commenting on anyone's driving abilities just stating the facts. Sometimes we don't intentionally go too fast but we do.
Former Proud owner of a 1994 Citroen Xantia 1.9d and BX 19RD

Now driving an Alfa 159 but god I miss the Xantia!
Post Reply