C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by horsedentist »

That would explain that then, as it goes from 1st to second and if you swap to manual and kick it into 3rd then put it back to auto it will change from 3rd to 4th just going from 2nd to 3rd it has problems with. Not had anyone to drive it for me at the moment. Box is not throwing any faults on the lexia so assume it doesn't know it isn't changing from 2nd to 3rd or it is getting the correct info to do so and thinks it has. Could it simply be a stuck or blocked valve do you think?
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by Mandrake »

I doubt it, if you can manually change it to 3rd the valve block must be working. For some reason the ECU is choosing not to change gear based on input/sensor data. As I said earlier, what model of gearbox is it ? I doubt anyone can give specific suggestions when we don't know what box it is...it could be as simple as a faulty multi function switch connected to the gear lever...

Live Lexia data would show you that even idling stationary. Have a look at all the view parameters pages while you move the gear lever through each gear. One page should show the exact position of the gear lever and other controls. Make sure the ECU receives correct input data from all the driver controls.

Maybe when the lever is in drive the ECU thinks it is in 2nd, and will thus hold 2nd. If you're already in 3rd and going too fast for 2nd the ECU will not change back down from 3rd to 2nd even if you put the lever in 2nd to protect the engine from over revving. Until you slow down that is...
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by horsedentist »

Hi
It's an AL4 HP20. Now I phoned my local gearbox repair place in Watford and they say it probably just needs a little bit more oil they said the sealed for life statement is a little optimistic. Only problem is how the hell do you get any in there I found a link on an Australian site which shows the filler plug under the gear change linkage but there ain't one on this box! I have searched high and low on the top of the casing and nothing that looks remotely like an orifice that would let you get oil into the damn box.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by myglaren »

Are these links any help.

AL4 Service and repair
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

Wait for CitroJim to see this. He takes those boxes apart for fun, as he finds it therapeutic (no accounting for tastes in relaxation!!). Other than that, search his posts or look on his website (where I got his explanation on how to repair this box) for the RIGHT information (as Citroen don't always get it right), as he normally won't post it until he is sure it is correct, and very quickly adds corrections when he gets it wrong (which isn't often).
Last edited by Hell Razor5543 on 01 Dec 2012, 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by horsedentist »

Looking at the Citroen manual it seems it may be on the side of the box I will look again tomorrow. It was interesting that the Citroen training manual said top up oil every 60,000 km perhaps the workshop are right and it needs a top up, it has done 138,000 miles so it may not have been topped off.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by Mandrake »

horsedentist wrote:Hi
It's an AL4 HP20.
Errr, there's no such thing as an AL4 HP20... the AL4 and the 4HP20 are two different and distinct gearboxes. :wink: They are quite similar in most regards and use the same oil but there are significant differences, the AL4 is the smaller of the two in terms of power transmission capability typically used on 2 litre engines or there abouts while the 4HP20 is used on the 3 litre V6.

So do you know if yours is the AL4 or the 4HP20 ? I'm guessing its the AL4, but you can tell for sure in the Lexia, as it will only communicate with the correct model of gearbox.
Now I phoned my local gearbox repair place in Watford and they say it probably just needs a little bit more oil they said the sealed for life statement is a little optimistic.
Hate to say it, especially when I'm no expert on automatic gearboxes, but I think their suggestion that it needs "a little bit more oil" is just grasping at straws and doesn't fit the symptoms at all. You really need to check the control inputs on the Lexia to confirm they're all ok before you go messing around with checking oil levels. If you can change to 3rd and 4th in manual it can't be low oil.
Only problem is how the hell do you get any in there I found a link on an Australian site which shows the filler plug under the gear change linkage but there ain't one on this box! I have searched high and low on the top of the casing and nothing that looks remotely like an orifice that would let you get oil into the damn box.
The oil level in an auto is very critical, but its actually just as dangerous to the health of the box to have the oil level too high as it is too low, and there is a special procedure for checking the level. You'd need to confirm whether its an AL4 or a 4HP20 before anyone can give you the exact details on how to check the level.

On the 4HP20 earlier models like the one in my Xantia V6 have a dipstick right at the front of the gearbox on the left hand side (near the battery) which can be used both to check the level and as a filling point, however in later revisions of the gearbox (some time around 2000) the dipstick was deleted meaning that the oil is now filled through the air breather vent and the level is checked by removing a level drain plug and allowing excess oil to drain out at a specific temperature. I'm not sure of the exact method for the AL4...

As I say I wouldn't worry too much about oil level at the moment, check the input data with the Lexia and make sure the multifunction switch on the gear lever and all the other driver controls for the gearbox are working properly...
Simon

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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by horsedentist »

Sorry that was my fault I thought all the four speeds were AL didn't realise al4 and 4hp20 were separate beasts, it is definitely 4hp20 according to the little plate on the back of box under the air filter it's 2001 on a 2.2 hdi.

Yes it works perfectly in manual mode changes up at a flick through all 4 gears and will change back down of it's own accord as you slow up or with a flick of the stick, just in auto that it won't go into 3rd, changes smoothly from 1st to 2nd then stays there. Plenty of power so nothing slipping. Tried it in sport mode and it is the same.
Lexia shows no faults on the auto box.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by horsedentist »

Update

Right I have found a fault in the bsi which says "Brake fault constant press" any ideas what this is ? I have checked the actual operation of brake pedal and it shows switches opening and closing as they should. Just wondered if that would confuse the box if the ecu thought I had my foot on the brake.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by Mandrake »

The gearbox does monitor the brake pedal, yes. It uses it mainly to decide when to use engine braking - if you're going downhill and have your foot on the brake for more than a few seconds but the speed remains constant or increases, the ECU decides that you're going downhill and trying to slow down so it will lock the torque converter, and then either change down for example 3rd to 2nd, or hold in the gear it's already in when it might have otherwise changed up a gear. This provides engine braking.

It also uses it to prevent sudden changes up in gear when going from heavy throttle to brakes - for example if you're accelerating hard causing it to stay in a low gear and then you suddenly take your foot off the accelerator to apply the brakes it would have otherwise changed up a gear, but due to the brake signal it will hold the current gear to provide engine braking.

So a faulty brake pedal signal would confuse the ECU a bit, but I'm not sure that it would prevent it changing into 3rd entirely.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by CitroJim »

Sorry I've taken so long to get to this thread and on 'my' subject too :roll: I've had to read it a few times and my contribution might not be good because currently I have the cognitive abilities of a five year old :evil: If I go over old ground please excuse me. I may have not completely digested what's gone before.

Simon, you're giving some great advice and I'd question your assertion that you’re not an HP20 expert :)

Oil will not be the cause of this and a top-up won't fix it. At 130,000 miles it's due for a change though... I can supply via email the official words on how to do so. Drop me a PM with your email address Mr. Dentist and I'll do the necessary. I have a standard email with the details in it...

On the Xantia and XM fitted with the HP20 a brake fault will be registered on the Lexia unless the brake pedal is kept pressed whilst the Lexia is reading faults; I'd expect it to be the same here.

There is nothing wrong with the 'box and and ECU par-se. That it works in snow mode and manual shows that reasonably enough.

The gearbox ECU will be in on intimate terms with both the engine ECU and ESP/ASR and ABS ECUs to get a full 'picture' of what's going on so before the 'box has any chance of working all faults in these systems must be cleared and those systems must be working normally. I saw reference to a speed sensor fault and that too will have an effect.

Looking at live data will be instructive to ensure it's good and genuine and not spurious.

One last thing that may be worth doing is to re-initialise the gearbox auto-adaptives. This function is not in the Diagnostics area of the Lexia but in the Installation of Spare Parts area.

That's the best I can offer at the moment. I'll now keep an eye on this thread. It's an interesting one and it will be good to see the answer to it...

As you know Simon, the engine must be performing correctly for the 'box to perform correctly so don't overlook and engine faults.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote: Simon, you're giving some great advice and I'd question your assertion that you’re not an HP20 expert :)
Kind words Jim, but my mechanical experience with the 4HP20 is limited to draining and filling the oil, and observing and trying to diagnose the symptoms of the "problem child" box in my car... :lol: I have been studying the documentation plenty though, and applying that to the symptoms that I see, so that and a bit of common sense is what I have to offer...
On the Xantia and XM fitted with the HP20 a brake fault will be registered on the Lexia unless the brake pedal is kept pressed whilst the Lexia is reading faults; I'd expect it to be the same here.
Good catch, I'd forgotten that you have to hold down the brake pedal for a couple of seconds after turning on the ignition to "clear" the brake pedal fault - a temporary brake pedal fault is automatically logged when the power to the box is turned on via the ignition switch and then cleared as soon as it sees the pedal pressed. In fact if you're on the fault code screen in the Lexia it will disappear before your eyes when you press the pedal...

On the other hand the fault horsedentist is seeing was logged in the BSI not the gearbox ECU, and the fault seems to suggest that the pedal switch is always active rather than never active, so it may not be the same issue.
There is nothing wrong with the 'box and and ECU par-se. That it works in snow mode and manual shows that reasonably enough.
I'm almost certain that its not a hydraulic or mechanical fault, and probably not a fault with the ECU either. It's got to be the input data to the ECU - either the driver controls (faulty multifunction switch on the gear lever for example) or incorrect data from one of the other systems it talks to like the ESP.
The gearbox ECU will be in on intimate terms with both the engine ECU and ESP/ASR and ABS ECUs to get a full 'picture' of what's going on so before the 'box has any chance of working all faults in these systems must be cleared and those systems must be working normally. I saw reference to a speed sensor fault and that too will have an effect.
My version of the 4HP20 training manual only covers the Xantia version of the 4HP20 - is there another document floating around the webs that covers the later C5 version ? From what I can gather the mechanics and hydraulics of the gearbox are the same or almost the same, the difference will be either the ECU or the software version running on the ECU, as it has to talk to systems like the ESP (and BSI ?) which don't exist on a Xantia. Does anyone have a later document including the C5 changes for me to study ? It would be interesting to see the interaction between the gearbox and ESP actually documented, and could be pivotal in diagnosing this fault.
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

I said wait for CitroJim to see this post. Even when he's "foggy" he still has got it!
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by CitroJim »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:Even when he's "foggy" he still has got it!
Kind words indeed :-D I was as foggy as a pea-souper yesterday :twisted: Not much better today :roll:
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Re: C5 2001 2.2 hdi sticks in second gear.

Post by horsedentist »

Hi Guys

Some fantastic info there guys so I have devised the following plan based on your input.

I will ignore the gearbox fault for now, as the engine has a particle filter blocked solid (I have one on order).

So I will Change particle filter and give the engine a good service and reset all the fault codes and ensure they are staying cleared before I make any further attempt to resolve the issue with the box.

I will report back when I have the engine system back to tickety boo.

With regards to the adoptive function for resetting the box there is a lexia problem there, I have the 346 version and I have tried it on 2 C5's both MK1 2001 vintage and on both of them the replacements parts section returns a message "function not available on this model) ?

Eric
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