replacement xantia required. Advice please.

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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by citroenxm »

Yea a bit Andrew....
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Citroenmad »

I quite like a sunroof, I can take them or leave them (so long as I have AC, which is a must anyway) but I dont dislike them and they can be a very nice feature. Even just to let in extra light with the blide back or to let some airflow through. I dont find the sunroof noisy on the Xantia, even with the blind open. Neither do I find it robs headroom by too much.

However, in an XM I do find headroom more of a problem. Even with the seat fully down my hair touches the roof, there is less headroom (probably a higher seat) than in the Xantia. I like an XM estate for this reason as it has a raised roof compared to the hatch. I also find a sunroof a little noisy in an XM, much quieter with the bline shut and no doubt more so in a non-sunroof car.

Paul, I like having my Xantia seats tilted right up at the front but down at the back, that is a very comfortable position!

To my knowledge every S2 Exclusive had sunroof, it was a standard fit feature. Though you might have been able to spec without? Andrew, are yours S1/S2?

Im not getting into the ABR, handling, Hydractive, Activa debate again. I'll be happy in the knowledge of what I like :lol:
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Mandrake »

Citroenmad wrote: Paul, I like having my Xantia seats tilted right up at the front but down at the back, that is a very comfortable position!
Same here, I've always had my Xantia seats (both Xantia's with electric seats) with the rear of the seat right down and the front of the seat nearly all the way up so that there is some leg support - otherwise I find anything other than a short journey uncomfortable. I find the standard non-electric Xantia seats uncomfortable for this reason, there is no leg support at the front as its too low for me. (I'm 6 foot, so to comfortably reach the steering wheel I find me knees are bent up a bit - the proportions for arm reach and leg length are not quite right for me on the Xantia, thus requiring the front of the seat tilted up a bit)
To my knowledge every S2 Exclusive had sunroof, it was a standard fit feature. Though you might have been able to spec without? Andrew, are yours S1/S2?
If you're referring to Xantia's my S2 Exclusive doesn't have a sun roof...
Last edited by Mandrake on 25 Oct 2012, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by DickieG »

Citroenmad wrote:To my knowledge every S2 Exclusive had sunroof, it was a standard fit feature.
Not initially Chris, I think it was from around 'S' reg onwards where a sunroof became standard spec for an Exclusive.
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Mandrake »

DickieG wrote:
Citroenmad wrote:To my knowledge every S2 Exclusive had sunroof, it was a standard fit feature.
Not initially Chris, I think it was from around 'S' reg onwards where a sunroof became standard spec for an Exclusive.
No sunroof on my S610 reg S2 Exclusive...which I'm happy about as the one Xantia we had with a sunroof was a bit of a pain for the reasons listed earlier in the thread. (Jamming / malfunctioning, blocked drain pipes, and reduced headroom etc) Not much call for a sun roof in the UK... :lol:
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Spaces »

DickieG wrote:
Spaces wrote:yet a wider tyre doesn't make for any more rubber on the road
Have you been on the sauce? :?
No, am just about to pour a glass of port, though! Getting chilly in these North York Moors and with a North-Easterly blowing it will be cold down South soon - fetch out the port and winter tyres!

Rules of physics - for a given mass on a tyre which is at a given pressure, a certain amount of rubber will be in contact with the road. More mass/less pressure then more contact patch, less mass/more pressure means a smaller contact patch. With a different size of tyre this contact patch size does not alter (unless it is of a totally different load rating or construction, so that deformation of the sidewall will be different) if the mass is the same and the tyre pressure is the same.

All that happens is that the contact patch becomes shorter and wider for a wider tyre. They may grip better when existing tyres are marginally on the narrow side for the suspension's abilities because lower profile tyres have marginally softer compounds quite often (because of reduced tread slip angle patch sizes) and the breakaway point is higher, if more sudden due to these reduced sizes of slip angle patch.
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by DickieG »

Spaces wrote:Rules of physics - for a given mass on a tyre which is at a given pressure, a certain amount of rubber will be in contact with the road. More mass/less pressure then more contact patch, less mass/more pressure means a smaller contact patch. With a different size of tyre this contact patch size does not alter (unless it is of a totally different load rating or construction, so that deformation of the sidewall will be different) if the mass is the same and the tyre pressure is the same.

All that happens is that the contact patch becomes shorter and wider for a wider tyre. They may grip better when existing tyres are marginally on the narrow side for the suspension's abilities because lower profile tyres have marginally softer compounds quite often (because of reduced tread slip angle patch sizes) and the breakaway point is higher, if more sudden due to these reduced sizes of slip angle patch.
That sounds all very nice in theory but in practical terms is pretty much a pointless argument as different tyre sizes demand different pressures as stated by the vehicle manufacturer, so whilst the theory looks very impressive its immediately blown out of the water by the manufacturer specifying different tyre pressures according the the size of tyre fitted which makes your statement of "a wider tyre doesn't make for any more rubber on the road" rather misleading.
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by citroenxm »

Yorkshire moors spaces... Im jealous!!! my most favorite place in the UK!! :P :mrgreen:
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Northern_Mike »

citroenxm wrote:Yorkshire moors spaces... Im jealous!!! my most favorite place in the UK!! :P :mrgreen:
I just find it's full of bikers who think they can go fast getting in my way when I drive up there..
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Spaces »

DickieG wrote: That sounds all very nice in theory but in practical terms is pretty much a pointless argument as different tyre sizes demand different pressures as stated by the vehicle manufacturer, so whilst the theory looks very impressive its immediately blown out of the water by the manufacturer specifying different tyre pressures according the the size of tyre fitted which makes your statement of "a wider tyre doesn't make for any more rubber on the road" rather misleading.
Not at all. Some models with wider tyres may suggest slightly higher pressures than for the standard fitment, others slightly lower pressure. I made it quite obvious that increasing pressure reduces contact patch, as is pretty obvious, I hope. You sound to be excusing yourself with a technicality, Dickie - are you suggesting that most tyres which are wider are suggested to have less pressure in them?
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Spaces »

citroenxm wrote:Yorkshire moors spaces... Im jealous!!! my most favorite place in the UK!! :P :mrgreen:
Well mine is the far North Wast of Scotland with the English Lake District running it a close second for very different reasons. But NYM are just grand, with some great people, landscapes, cultures and roads! The Castleton to Hutton-le-Hole via Rosedale Head road doesn't half sort out the wheat from the chaff, car-wise. Adverse and sudden camber changes, appalling foundations with poor surfaces in places, sudden dips and crests, running water, nasty corners etc. CAR magazine used to love it for those very reasons - many cars which felt ok elsewhere would expose their shortcomings on that stretch of road. Plus the views are (not) to die for.
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by DickieG »

Spaces wrote:
DickieG wrote: That sounds all very nice in theory but in practical terms is pretty much a pointless argument as different tyre sizes demand different pressures as stated by the vehicle manufacturer, so whilst the theory looks very impressive its immediately blown out of the water by the manufacturer specifying different tyre pressures according the the size of tyre fitted which makes your statement of "a wider tyre doesn't make for any more rubber on the road" rather misleading.
Not at all. Some models with wider tyres may suggest slightly higher pressures than for the standard fitment, others slightly lower pressure. I made it quite obvious that increasing pressure reduces contact patch, as is pretty obvious, I hope. You sound to be excusing yourself with a technicality, Dickie - are you suggesting that most tyres which are wider are suggested to have less pressure in them?
Each to their own opinion but for me your argument is far too simplistic and very misleading, I'm not excusing myself of any technicality or suggesting that most wider tyres have lower pressures as in reality most vehicles supplied with wider tyres have larger heavier engines, different suspension setups and more/heavier equipment in them than the lower spec models supplied with narrower tyres so far too many variables to use your simplistic theory, plus of course you're not taking into account the much greater load placed onto a tyre during cornering or braking compressing the tyres on the outside of the curve.

The most important thing to take into account is that the tyre pressure has to be whatever is determined to be correct, too high and the centre of the tyre bulges out losing contact on the outer edges, too low and the centre of the tyre folds upwards, so you only stating that higher pressure reduces contact is again a rather select argument.

Reading through your previous posts on the subject in other threads you do appear to have a problem (almost to the point of a prejudice) with wide tyres and appear to be looking for any select theory to prove your argument without telling the whole story. Earlier in this thread (and other threads) you mention changing the standard fit 205/60R15 tyres on your Xantia to 195/65R15 then wax lyrical about how much better the taller sidewalls of the 195 tyres are in dealing with corrugations on the road surface, yet somehow you failed to take into account that the height of the sidewalls on those two tyres is the same, how does that work :?
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Mandrake »

Just in my own personal experience on my previous Xantia, the stock tire size was 185/65/15 on alloys, being a 2 litre petrol automatic, and I never thought the handling of those size tyres did the Hydractive justice. It wasn't too hard to scrub the tyres on hard cornering and there was quite a bit of understeer especially under power. It gave the impression of tyres just a bit too small for the weight of the car.

I changed the tyres to 205/60/15 - the same size as the Activa and V6, albeit the rims were slightly narrower than those models. The difference in overall grip, cornering limits, handling bias and so on was quite astounding, and really allowed the car to perform to the potential of the Hydractive system. (Now horsepower became the limiting factor...) Understeer was almost non existant except under heavy acceleration in very wet conditions where it would safely run wide at the front. In any other conditions there was no real understeer, handling was remarkably neutral and stable at the limit, cornering was sharp, ride was no worse than before.

When choosing 205/60 I calculated that the sidewall height and outside diameter is almost the same as 185/65, in fact the 205/60 has a very slightly taller sidewall and greater overall diameter, so it's definitely not lower profile.

I experimented with tyre pressure a lot to find the optimum on the theory the optimum would be different for the different size, but found that 33-34 psi gave the best ride/handling balance at the front, exactly the same as the recommended 33 psi for the original tyre size. Likewise the recommended rear pressure for the original size was 30psi and that seemed to give the best results with the larger tyres too.

In this particular instance it was clear that 185/65 was simply too small for the level of performance the car could achieve, and didn't really provide any counter balancing improvement in ride, better ride comes from taller sidewalls not narrower contact patch...

The 205/60 was significantly wider but also slightly taller, grip and handling was far better but ride was actually better than the original tyres too. No real downside that I could see except cost, which was offset by the fact that the larger tyre lasted a lot longer as the rubber wasn't being pushed as close to its adhesion limits (less scuffing and slipping) as it would have been on the smaller tyres...
Last edited by Mandrake on 25 Oct 2012, 23:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Spaces »

Is this a London area/rest of the UK communication/understanding problem or are you genuinely able to turn something straightforwards and honest on its head and make it sound vaguely plausible?! I wonder what profession you work in?

Dickie, I am stating a simple physical fact. Pressure=mass/area. I'm not trying to be misleading. When I stated higher pressure means a smaller contact patch I was demonstrating something which actually does alter the size of this contact - having stated it is not tyre width, ceteris paribus.

Of course this is physical laws and in the real world there will be subtle discrepencies, but if you are going to lauch a craft to the Moon, you must understand and have a dexterity with the Gravitational Laws, even if they don't completely predict everything. Simplistic theory is what took Man to the Moon. With an added dose of high intelligence and education.

I do have a problem with over-wide tyres to make up for a cheap strut front suspension as they cause (along with the stiff anti roll bars) untold roadholding problems, unless you live in a suburbia full of roundabouts and smooth roads.

DickieG wrote:Reading through your previous posts on the subject in other threads you do appear to have a problem (almost to the point of a prejudice) with wide tyres and appear to be looking for any select theory to prove your argument without telling the whole story. Earlier in this thread (and other threads) you mention changing the standard fit 205/60R15 tyres on your Xantia to 195/65R15 then wax lyrical about how much better the taller sidewalls of the 195 tyres are in dealing with corrugations on the road surface, yet somehow you failed to take into account that the height of the sidewalls on those two tyres is the same, how does that work
Prejudice comes in many forms, Dickie, and I'm not prejudiced against anyone or anything - except perhaps wilful ignorance. Not even those who can't do simple sums. I write my own findings on here for the benefit of all to consume, digest and make what they want of it - but what I write is accurate. If I lived amidst a sea of roundabouts and smooth, level roads where there was little standing water, I wouldn't deviate from the wider, lower profile tyres. That I do, suggests I don't.

By the way, Harrogate is hardly remote. I take it you have read my post on the GS section?
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Re: replacement xantia required. Advice please.

Post by Spaces »

Mandrake wrote:
The 205/60 was significantly wider but also slightly taller, grip and handling was far better but ride was actually better than the original tyres too. No real downside that I could see except cost, which was offset by the fact that the larger tyre lasted a lot longer as the rubber wasn't being pushed as close to its adhesion limits (less scuffing and slipping) as it would have been on the smaller tyres...
Everything you say is right, Mandrake - this bit: "better ride comes from taller sidewalls not narrower contact patch" I agree with totally, I'm not suggesting anywhere that a narrower patch makes for a better ride. In fact, the better ride with 205/60s over 185/65s comes from not just a taller sidewall but also a marginally bigger volume of air in the tyre. Whoever specified 185/65/15 tyres for hydractives was well out of kilter with what that suspension needs, in my opinion. In fact, any Xantia on that tyre size feels a little 'weak', to my mind. I feel the tyre range should have been up one size with gearing altered to suit - 195 65 15 as a basic, with 205 65 15s and 215 60 15s for faster and more competent models. But French roads are increasingly different from our own.

Equally, the 195/65 tyre is bigger in volume again, with a taller sidewall still - and provides a better ride and is better able to cope with rippled roads and potholes. They suit me and the roads I drive on, the way I drive and the way I have the suspension configured. Standing water, washboard surfaces and potholes are better dealt with at the expense of sheer cornering ability. But with a good hydractive this is so high that a 2 or 3% loss at the limit on smooth roads is more than made up for with the better composure over poorer roads - and better cornering on them.
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