replacement xantia required. Advice please.

[Old-Guy]

I just Dont need extra electronics and valves to encourage more leaks, and things to go wrong..

I'm with Paul on this - I have no view on the relative comfort, I just don't need the extra complexity and maintenance on an old car which is our only means of transport in a rural area.

I do hanker after an XM (series 2) - for the space and ride, despite the complexity of Hydractive 2 suspension.

[Citroenmad]

Well this is a right can of worms

I've only driven an early Xantia so I can' comment on the suspension however anti roll bars by their design only come into play on corners so i can't see a thicker anti roll bar making much difference to the ride.

Im not sure how that conclusion is reached

The anti roll bars are connected all of the time, obviously. They in effect link one side to the other, so this limits wheel travel on individual bumps and makes the wheels less able to react independantly on individual bumps, as the other side is trying to keep the wheel in a similar position to the other side. Drive any car up one ramp with one wheel and you will see the limited travel, not because the car has reached full travel but because the anti roll bars are so stiff.

I did a test with a C5 by removing a drop link (I was replacing it at the time) I drove the car to find the ride was totally excellent. I could drive up and down the small curb outside our driveway without feeling it. Usually this rocks the car as the anti roll bar fights with the other side. It rode small bumps very nicely too and wafted over undulations. Anti roll bars are a basic solution to a problem but its not a good solution and a few manufacturers have tried other methods to reduce the effect of anti roll bars upon the ride quality or to think of other measures. I could mention the Activa here, but I wont!


Handling is about how the car feels, how it is set up to have a neutral, oversteer or understeer nature. I would certainly not say a 2cv handles well, it depends what you look for in handling I suppose. However, considering the skinny tyres, the roll and the weight of the car, it does grip quite well. If anti roll bars could be put on, it would improve grip but ruin the ride, im sure.

While a 2cv will hang on into a corner despite the body roll, the chassis has ok levels of grip. Likewise you can have a car which corners very flat around bends but has little actual grip. To an extent yes, grip is effected by body roll. As a car rolls during cornering it puts more weight onto the outside wheels and reduces weight from the inside wheels. Overloading two and forcing them to lean onto the sidewalls and the two without much weight have less grip due to the reduced weight ... I could mention the Activa again here ... which in my experience has far greater grip than a normal Xantia, due to its flat cornering and so a more equal share of load on all four tyres.

In fact cars which have very stiff anti roll bars can actually have poor grip, due to the susension not being able to cope with the road conditions. On a track of course it would be a different story.

However, anti roll bars can greatly improve handling, depending on what you want. Having a stiffer rear anti roll bar will induce a more tail happy handling car which can acheive lift off oversteer much easier than a car set up with a very weak or no rear anti roll bar. This is often not the desired set up for a road car as it is more risky for some drivers, a front which washes wide on oversteer is often more predictable.

The Traction Avant doesn't have antil roll bars due to the design of the torsion bars which themselves reduce roll. The hydraulic rear ended Traction does have anti roll bars.

[isisalar]

I didn't intend to stir up a hornets nest but it seems I have. Some very interesting stuff.
So:- An estate will have stiffer anti roll bars and so will have an inherently harder ride than an equivilant saloon? By how much?
If I took an angle grinder to the anti roll bar on the vsx would it improve the ride? Is there any danger in doing so?
I'm not going to rush out and do it but it would be interesting, bearing in mind it's going to the scrapper soon.
The car is on death row because of corrosion at the top of the inner wings, along with many other issues, thanks for your concern everybody.
If anyone within striking distance of north London has a well sorted hydractive estate I could try I'd be very grateful.
I've more or less resigned myself to getting a 1.9d lx/sx but the vsx spec wise is still more attractive.
I found a possible candidate yesterday but pictures revealed the common rust in the rear wheel arch/ door shut area. Is this an mot failure and how repairable is it? Do all estates rust here?
I'll put this up in for sale/ wanted section but does anyone have a well sorted 1.9td estate for sale.
Thanks
Paul

[Spaces]

Whilst acknowledging the anti-roll bar is basic and a poor solution, you appear to argue opposing points, Citroenmad.

There's a generation of people who have experienced little other than the crude MacPherson strut - which demands flat cornering if the tyre is to grip. This in turn has brought about the over-strong anti roll bar, with all the associated nasty consequences - especially the requirement for wide tyres since the loads are transferred so heavily to the outside two tyres when cornering with the stiff anti roll bars typical on modern cars.

Good quality suspension isn't affected by some body roll, it also doesn't require outsized wide tyres to corner well. Combined with a wide track and low centres of mass, you can create a car which corners fantastically well without stiff anti roll bars. There's good reason Citroën went to the lengths it did to make cars hold the road so superbly, not least lightweight roof panels and boxer engines as well as refined suspension - it's all about creating the maximum possible contact and pressure from every tyre for as much time as possible, something Citroën once understood like no other. It's why they bothered with hydraulic suspension.

Many genuinely believe a wider tyre means more grip because of the universal MacPh strut's requirements, yet a wider tyre doesn't make for any more rubber on the road, (this remains the same if the car weighs the same and the tyres are at the same pressure). It's the shape of the contact patch which changes, to one which is better suited to the forces imposed by arbs. Similarly roll is not inherently a bad thing, either - in fact some controlled roll is a very clever way indeed of dissipating energy, so allowing more tyre grip. And light weight doesn't mean less grip, either - with good suspension and correct tyre choice all cars should be able to exert the same grip on the road. (Interestingly, Citroenmad, my natural prejudices work the other way from yours - I'd expect a good light car to handle better than a good heavy one.)

Modern machines are designed to impress on the test drive and on the Top Gear test track; modern car suspension can suffer a collapse in its abilities when roads are more demanding, especially in winter. In the real world, a little heel, weak anti roll bars, double wishbones and moderate width tyres with a decent depth of sidewall work far better - by which I mean you can travel more quickly, more easily, more safely.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 25 years upmarket, high-spec and sports cars have got rid of the nasty steel bars strapped across the axles and instead use a form of Kinetic's product with hydraulics which Citroën used in its WRC cars. Several manufacturers have already done this and report 25% more grip. The logical step is to integrate this with hydraulic suspension and gas springs - perhaps that's for the 22nd century, given the slow progress in the 1st century of the motor car?

PS Chris, anti roll bars on a 2cv reduce the grip, as expected. To make a 2cv corner harder, make sure it is on a Citroën chassis (preferably the original 2cv type rather than the strengthened Dyane/PO-type - but defintely not one of the cheap aftermarket ones), a strong body (many rebuilds are notoriously poorly welded), suspension arms with correct geometries (many made post 1985 don't) and Michelin tyres. If that doesn't make it go fast enough through corners then adjust the damping slightly by either using heavier oil or a set of adjustables (AVOs are ok and not too expensive), bring the bump stops into play a little sooner but make them more progressive. Fit 135 Michelins to make use of the flatter cornering. I did all this and the results were good.

[citroenxm]

Sounds like my Visas of old and reno 9s.. they rolllllllleddd but NEVER gave out on corners and ive never been a believer of all this zero roll rubbish.. look what happens to activas when pushed to hard on corners they do roll.... on to their roofs or through hedges because the car remains flat the tyres don't tell you anything till its toooooooooo late...

Im glad yur here Spaces.. i was beginning to think i was the only one who dislikes hydractive and activa setups... i still do too....

[DickieG]

yet a wider tyre doesn't make for any more rubber on the road

Have you been on the sauce?

[lurchy666]

All lx and ax s2 models were sunroofs less... even the forte specials... all S and T reg cars will be 110bhp but most of those seem to be exclusivess... from V w x and y they can be either a 90 or 110bhp... but the one to go for is a Sx 110 which can easily have electric leather added as the plugs are under the seats ready to simply plug in..

sunroofs never an option on the other models only standard on exclusivess....


i had taken a T reg Sx 110 in for parts in silver with some mot still on it but with bad rear end rust.. on the rear passenger wing and ontop of the rear Sill in the door jams.. a shame really otherwise a nice car..

i beg to differ, my s2 t reg estate110 hdi SX has a sunroof

[DickieG]

Once A/C was made standard equipment you could specify a sunroof as a free alternative or as an optional extra to be fitted in addition to as A/C.

[citroenxm]

All lx and ax s2 models were sunroofs less... even the forte specials... all S and T reg cars will be 110bhp but most of those seem to be exclusivess... from V w x and y they can be either a 90 or 110bhp... but the one to go for is a Sx 110 which can easily have electric leather added as the plugs are under the seats ready to simply plug in..

sunroofs never an option on the other models only standard on exclusivess....


i had taken a T reg Sx 110 in for parts in silver with some mot still on it but with bad rear end rust.. on the rear passenger wing and ontop of the rear Sill in the door jams.. a shame really otherwise a nice car..

i beg to differ, my s2 t reg estate110 hdi SX has a sunroof

I beg to differ my own opinion too, because I have SINCE found out that S2 cars with Air Con had a £310 OPTION for sunroof fitting... So I am wrong, they are available as an option.....

[lurchy666]

mine has sunroof and a/c tbh the sunroof is just a pain as all it does as you go down the road is rattle,

[citroenxm]

Exclusives had them as standard, which I have, and I hate them too for lots of reasons...

1. Lower roof line, lack of head room
2. Rattles and wind noise
3. Drain pipes block and over flow.
4. (On XM's) Water overflows into the car from around the roof console
5. Just a right PITA having them!!

[andmcit]

Shall this just get called the Xantia gripes thread?

Exclusives didn't automatically get a sunroof as I have three
that I wish did!

[Northern_Mike]

Exclusives had them as standard, which I have, and I hate them too for lots of reasons...

1. Lower roof line, lack of head room
2. Rattles and wind noise
3. Drain pipes block and over flow.
4. (On XM's) Water overflows into the car from around the roof console
5. Just a right PITA having them!!

I'm 6'1" and my Exclusive has a sunroof. I don't notice a lack of headroom, it's fitted correctly so there's no rattle or wind noise, the drains aren't blocked and it works fine.

I still can't really see the point in them but it's perfectly ok..

[citroenxm]

Thats only what I think of them... The problem I have to cause the lack of head room is a back issue.. If I lower my drivers seat to the lowest setting them my legs are at the wrong angle, I then can drive no further then 5 miles and Im in agony with my lower back and left leg...

But if the seat is on max height, which it needs to be, then I dont suffer...

The XM is perfect in this respect, the seating is higher in the XM - I never suffer a back issue in them.. should junk the Xantia and get the XM back on the road.. The way things are going that looks likely quite soon, as Ill have pleanty of time to do the work...

[andmcit]

should junk the Xantia and get the XM back on the road.. The way things are going that looks likely quite soon, as Ill have pleanty of time to do the work...

That sounds quite ominous Paul: work a bit down for you too?