Diesel costs

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Re: Diesel costs

Post by CitroJim »

Xac wrote:
CitroJim wrote:What is the duty on LPG Xac?

What makes it more or less half the cost of petrol and diesel?
31.61ppl going up to 37.34ppl in January.
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by spider »

As a slightly off topic note, I'd be interested in why these fuel cell technologies or Hydrogen (if not the same) have not taken off. Hydro does seem idea if practical though given the 'waste' is going to be water ? :?:

I realise there's a bit of a risk with a tank of hydro but then again an LPG vehicle has a tank of explosive gasses too ? , I've not really looked into an LPG or otherwise vehicle, I cannot recall seeing one offhand.

Wonder if the oil companies own all the patents to said technologies :-k
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by CitroJim »

Andy, I'm very happy to tell you all about LPG. My XM has been converted.

Not much danger as the gas is held in a very sturdy toroidal pressure vessel in place of the spare wheel. In the event of an accident or fire there's a lot of protection around it to prevent gas escapes and explosions. I'd say a gas escape in a calamity is a lot less likely than a petrol spill...
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by Xaccers »

Hydrogen cells are still more expensive to make than batteries but they are being tested for practicality. There's a prototype car I think from Honda with a range of 290 miles which is getting on to petrol tank ranges. Refilling with hydrogen doesn't take long, but there isn't the infrastructure in place to have hydrogen at fuel stations and the rarity of LPG shows how unlikely forecourts are going to welcome it.
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by RichardW »

Whilst hydrogen is superficuiallty attractive as a fuel as it has minimal combutsionproducts, it does have a number of problems....
1. It's already in short supply on refineries - recent tightening on fuel specs means much more is required to upgrade fuels to retail spec
2. Most is made from natural gas or other light hydrocarbons - and a huge amount of CO2 is released in its manufacture - like 10tonnes / tonne of H2 - so the 'dirty stuff' (if you sign up the AGW bandwagon) is just pushed elsewhere.
3. It's got bugger all mass so needs to be compressed to stupid high pressures to make it transportable - seen a hydrogen tube trailer running about? Those cylinders are at 200bar. This a) costs a lot and b) uses a lot of energy.
4. It does funny things when you let the pressure off again - like heats up rather than cools down, and this, combined with a very low ignition energy tends to mean that leaks catch fire. And the flames are invisible!

It's not coming any time soon!

The only 'green' solution is production via electrolysis / compression supplied from renewable sources - and we all know how reliable they are!!
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by spider »

RichardW wrote: 4. It does funny things when you let the pressure off again - like heats up rather than cools down, and this, combined with a very low ignition energy tends to mean that leaks catch fire. And the flames are invisible!
This I did not know, although the conflagration would alert you to the area of concern. Seriously though its scary thought moreso about the invisible burning. :o

I'm not 100% convinced that having a particulate filter in a modern engine is that good really either, simply as you're really 'storing' the sooty output (hence why some of the newer ones when being emission tested did not believe the machine was connected, the output was so clean) and then using other chemicals to later heat it and burn it away. :-k , these technologies appeared after I'd left so I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of my post. :)
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by CitroJim »

You know Andy, I reckon the particulate filter just stores pollution and discharges it at a later time, possibly in a worse form that it was originally in. I believe a lot of the stuff added to diesel to make a particulate filter work (e.g. Eolys fluid) is cerium based and Wikipedia suggests that burning the stuff is toxic...

Never knew that about hydrogen Richard. I always knew it was lively stuff but not quite that lively. There's some big problems ahead in making it a viable fuel, that's for sure.
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by Xaccers »

Alcohol fuel cells might be an option then. I know Toshiba developed one to power a laptop
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by spider »

Xac wrote:Alcohol fuel cells might be an option then. I know Toshiba developed one to power a laptop
I can see the joke's now...

* Have you been drink driving ?

* No

* Are you sure ?

* Oh yes, I've not but the car has.


On a serious note its a good idea though if it is practical, eventually.
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by RichardW »

CitroJim wrote:I reckon the particulate filter just stores pollution and discharges it at a later time, possibly in a worse form that it was originally in.
Depends on which green agenda you are signed up to.... 8-)

It catches the soot particles that are formed in diesel combustion, and largely form the black smoke seen eg under hard acceleration. These are considered to be bad as they are probably carcinogenic. When regenerated, the soot is burned cleanly to carbon dioxide only - less carcinogens, more 'greenhouse' gas :? not sure about the additive - wouldn't want to drink any !

There's a bit in the MOT regs about cars with DPF - often the gas analyser will report a fault as there is no smoke (if it's working!) - this can be attached to the MOT and doesn't constitute a fail. You can tell if it's working or not anyway as the tail pipe is spotless!
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by Xaccers »

spider wrote:
Xac wrote:Alcohol fuel cells might be an option then. I know Toshiba developed one to power a laptop
I can see the joke's now...

* Have you been drink driving ?

* No

* Are you sure ?

* Oh yes, I've not but the car has.


On a serious note its a good idea though if it is practical, eventually.
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by KP »

I can tell you when some of the DPF's burn off the soot they are anything but clean out the back!
the Dcat fitted to toyotas gets up to temp and then injects fuel to burn it off. Smoke cloud is then seen behind the car!

I'll stick with the bio from WVO tbh :) simpler and less process/energy hungry unless we all go the battery way!

It doesnt feel that long ago i was filling LPG up for 29p/l Jim :)

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Re: Diesel costs

Post by CitroJim »

KP wrote: It doesnt feel that long ago i was filling LPG up for 29p/l Jim :)
At my age it doesn't seem that long ago petrol cost that for a gallon :roll:
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by Gibbo2286 »

The answer is far simpler than you think, petrol is really a waste by-product as far as the oil industry is concerned, it's what's left over after all the other heavier products, plastics, heavy oils and the like are taken out.
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Re: Diesel costs

Post by CitroJim »

Gibbo2286 wrote:The answer is far simpler than you think, petrol is really a waste by-product as far as the oil industry is concerned, it's what's left over after all the other heavier products, plastics, heavy oils and the like are taken out.
Indeed, back in the days of old they didn't know what to do with it and burned it off to get rid of it. It's quite interesting to study the history of petrol and particularly of one Thomas Midgeley who was seen as the greatest man on the planet when he invented Tetra Ethyl Lead which was better know as leaded petrol and at a stroke reduced valve wear, cured the old problem of detonation and allowed the oil industry to turn more of the crude oil into good petrol.

Not content with one environmental disaster he then went on to revolutionise refrigeration and air conditioning by inventing CFCs :roll: Again, it was seen as the wonder of the age.

Poor Thomas :( If only he knew the legacy of his inventions...
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