Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm running)

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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:Something to remember here, Jim, is that Valeo insist that, for the warranty to be valid, you must use Forte Stop Leak when replacing a heater matrix. I would be very surprised if a recognised parts manufacturer would make such a demand if they felt it could cause damage to other components.
Sadly I think that might be a slightly naive and trusting view of the world...

It all comes down to culpability - if their coolant sealing product caused your gearbox to fail 15,000 - 20,000 miles later could you really trace it back to the application of that sealant, and even if you suspected it could you prove that it was that and not abuse or some other fault ? I would say no, at least not without a detailed (and expensive) post mortem.

Would they even be aware of the potential risks in every model of car in the world that their product might be put into ? No.

Remember that a lot of oil suppliers were happy to recommend Dexron III in place of Dexron II claiming that it's fully backward compatible, but there is strong evidence (after the fact) that Dexron III has killed plenty of boxes designed for Dexron II. Who is to blame here and who can be believed ?

After what I've seen with the comparative temperature measurements between the two cars, the two year history of symptoms of the old gearbox and the fact that it actually HAS now failed as predicted, I would not put ANY kind of stop leak in the coolant at all - its simply not worth the risk.

If the coolant expansion bottle or heater matrix are leaking then just do the job properly and replace them for god sake. It's not worth writing off the car by risking destroying the gearbox. :(

Changing a heater matrix IS a much easier job than changing a gearbox, and about 1/20th of the cost...
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
KP
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by KP »

Labour wise they are probably about the same though to be honest :(
Hell Razor5543
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Hell Razor5543 »

Mandrake wrote:If the coolant expansion bottle or heater matrix are leaking then just do the job properly and replace them for god sake. It's not worth writing off the car by risking destroying the gearbox. :(

Changing a heater matrix IS a much easier job than changing a gearbox, and about 1/20th of the cost...
I believe that Valeo require Forte Stop Leak to be used when fitting one of their heater matrixes for the warranty to be honoured.
James
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:
Mandrake wrote:If the coolant expansion bottle or heater matrix are leaking then just do the job properly and replace them for god sake. It's not worth writing off the car by risking destroying the gearbox. :(

Changing a heater matrix IS a much easier job than changing a gearbox, and about 1/20th of the cost...
I believe that Valeo require Forte Stop Leak to be used when fitting one of their heater matrixes for the warranty to be honoured.
They can say what they like but I think they'll find they're at the wrong end of the law if they tried to enforce it, at least in the UK.

Consumer guarantees act (?) supersedes any "offered" warranty terms that have strings attached. If the product fails quickly and without abuse it's not fit for service.

I can't see how they can get away with demanding that a 3rd party "stop leak" formulation of any sort (with potentially harmful side effects) must be used - what does that have to do with their heater matrix ? Are we to believe that whilst the original Citroen heater matrix can last 10+ years with no magic potions in the coolant, their replacement needs stop leak goo to prevent it from failing in short order ? If so I don't want one thanks.

It's scare tactics not enforceable by law to minimise the number of false returns from old cars that might be losing coolant elsewhere, so they want you to gum up the rest of your cooling system to make less work for them. [-X They don't care how long your gearbox lasts. :roll:
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

KP wrote:Just a ponder but could another heat exchanger not be used at all?
Can't see why not, and in fact I think in countries with very hot climates its not uncommon to fit an after market cooler in addition to the standard heat exchanger... Addo would probably know. ;)

The only issue is if you replaced it entirely in the case of a completely blocked heat exchanger (which I think is what you're suggesting) then you lose the temperature regulation aspect of the heat exchanger where the gearbox oil temperature will tend to stabilise closely around the coolant temperature. On my new V6 you can see the two temperatures are closely coupled together and the gearbox oil temperature quickly returns to the coolant temperature when the gearbox isn't under heavy load. (most heat generation is from the torque converter when accelerating with the torque converter unlocked)

You wouldn't want the gearbox oil temperature going too low for example, or taking too long to warm up in cold climates. The heat exchanger also works in reverse and helps get the gearbox oil up to temperature quicker in sub zero temperatures by allowing the engine to warm it up...
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by KP »

Ahh your meaning a different cooling circuit Simon :)

I'm meaning just a better more free flowing heat exchanger :)

Does it just sit as a block ontop of the engine or is it a true fluid / fluid heat exchanger with the two circuits running through it? I've never seen one so don't know you see, although I am now off out to see what the V6 I'm working on now is like in this respect :)
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

The original heat exchanger is bolted to the top of the gearbox (you can see it with the air filter box removed) and is a fluid to fluid heat exchanger with an oil loop and a coolant loop...it's the heat exchanger that the banjo pipe on the left hand side of the gearbox goes up to, this is part of the oil loop.

3rd party ones may vary and may be completely stand alone like the oil cooler on an air cooled engine. I also haven't seen one before, I just know they exist...
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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CitroJim
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by CitroJim »

I've nothing to add but I'm following this with great interest...
Jim

Runner, cyclist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
KP
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by KP »

Does anyone have a picture of one at all as I'm betting they come with the gearbox and psa don't sell them standalone?!
RichardW
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by RichardW »

Still available separately, if you're a lottery winner like Jim :lol:

Part Number Description Quantity Price excl. VAT Price incl. VAT Total incl. VAT Selection
0000227541 DISTRIB CHAMBER 301.91 GBP 362.29 GBP 362.29 GBP

Would be difficult to use anything else as it's pretty integral to the box by the looks of it.

PS amusing that this car still has a blog even though it has more or less died, and has passed out of Forum hands :)
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Stempy »

There was a new one on ebay a while back, wish I'd had it now.
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xantos
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by xantos »

It has no rest in the grave and is still haunting the FCF :twisted:

Still some very useful information to be read!
Xantia Break 1.9TD (jammed b****!)
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT + LPG (1998) (peeing b****!) RIP
Xantia Activa 2.0 TCT (1998) (burnt b****!)
Xantia Activa 3.0 V6 (1998) (not a b****! yet :-D )
C4 Exclusive 2.0 HDi (gear shifting b****!)
KP
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by KP »

it will be VERY funny if at some point it turns up in Iran complete and they search for common issues and then see this thread and go.... Ermmm, we have some work to do on this one lol!
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote: Would be difficult to use anything else as it's pretty integral to the box by the looks of it.
It does unbolt off the box but its also the termination point for the banjo pipe that comes up from the left hand side - I think the heat exchanger end of that pipe is some sort of push fit with an o-ring seal ? At least its some kind of joint that can pivot over quite a wide angle as you can tilt the banjo pipe a lot when it's disconnected...
PS amusing that this car still has a blog even though it has more or less died, and has passed out of Forum hands :)
Yeah I should really let the poor thing rest, but I thought a bit of closure on the root cause of the problem would be nice, and hopefully help another V6 avoid the same fate by getting the word out!

We now have some "known good" AND "known bad" temperature readings from the gearbox, that should be useful to anyone who is in doubt about their heat exchanger. With what I know now I would certainly be checking the oil temperature under load if I were to buy another one, and I wonder what percentage of failed V6 gearboxes have been down to people stuffing stop leak gunk into the coolant because they're too lazy to change a heater matrix ? :roll:

From what I've seen it could take well over 10k miles after the heat exchanger is blocked to kill the box, and if the car is not driven hard it might limp along even longer than that...
Stempy wrote:There was a new one on ebay a while back, wish I'd had it now.
Heat exchanger ?
KP wrote:it will be VERY funny if at some point it turns up in Iran complete and they search for common issues and then see this thread and go.... Ermmm, we have some work to do on this one lol!
So did it definitely go to Iran then ? :) You didn't sound sure what they were going to do with it last time you posted...
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by KP »

To be honest I'm still not 100% sure :( it could well go in bits or go as a whole but if they do get it out there and repair the gearbox without flushing the heat exchanger or putting another on then the box will quickly die again from those readings in Scotland :)

Checked the V6 I'm working in at the minute and it took ages to get to 91' and then quite quickly went down to 85 when I sat at cruise and hen 80 after another minute or two so it defiantly followed the coolant temp :)