Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm running)

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stevieb
Posts: 265
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 21:14

Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by stevieb »

stevieb wrote:...the clamp/joint between the cat and exhaust beginning to let go (the mild steel of the cat is rotten, so it looks like a new cat is required if I can't get a section welded in - barely worth it though, is it?) so I can't confirm any more than what I learned on a 10-mile round trip yesterday. Sadly there's no exhaust hanger in this area, so if this joint breaks the front end of the exhaust will drop and I don't want to think about the consequences of that happening...
Disaster averted. The cat pipe wasn't as rotten as it looked - I'd forgotten about the melted carrier bag residue that was making it look like there were holes in it - it's just the blackened plastic!!! I think a "doh!" is in order #-o

Helpfully I've found a spare hanger on the exhaust path, so with a bit of a bodge using some el-cheapo DIY bracket-making bits from Halfrauds I've put a new bracket onto the exhaust that applies a little bit of forward pressure to try and take some stress off that middle joint. The middle joint has had a coating of Firegum too - the stainless exhaust is a bit too loose inside the cat pipe, so this should take up some of the slack.

It's too late for a jaunt out to the country now though, so tomorrow will be the first proper test-run of the new pump - I don't know where yet, but I'll report back when I've got more to tell :wink:
lexi
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by lexi »

I am astounded by some of the findings and experimental work on this thread.
I have this picture of you guys at the window with a shotgun in middle of the night.

Just waiting for the Bustards that are interfering with your V6's while you sleep. "I didn't get them last night Steve but with no moon and cloud tonight I have a feeling them s**t will be fiddling with my car tonight"
"Yeah, you could be right Simon. I was getting 68mpg last week. They don't fool me! Them Bustards are puttin fuel in my car during the night man!!" :rofl2: :rofl2:
Citroen C5 1.6 HDI 110bhp Estate 06 plate

French Mistresses gone.
Citroen C5 HDI Mk 1 hatchback
Vel Satis 3.5 v6
ZX 1.9D Est.
ZX 1.9DHatch
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Xantia 2.0 hdi Est.
Xantia V6 MK1
Xantia V6 MK 2
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote:
stevieb wrote:...the clamp/joint between the cat and exhaust beginning to let go (the mild steel of the cat is rotten, so it looks like a new cat is required if I can't get a section welded in - barely worth it though, is it?) so I can't confirm any more than what I learned on a 10-mile round trip yesterday. Sadly there's no exhaust hanger in this area, so if this joint breaks the front end of the exhaust will drop and I don't want to think about the consequences of that happening...
See the title of this thread ? If you go back to the very beginning you'll see the exhaust broke behind the cat on mine. :twisted: I don't know if its the same kind of joint with an inner and outer skin on the 406 but on the Xantia the outer skin rusts away until it breaks free from the weld and then there is nothing holding it together even though the inner tube is fine.

On mine I ended up (with help from RichardW :) ) cutting 3-4 slots in the pipe from the centre silencer, adding a bit of exhaust sealant and fitting a standard U-bolt style exhaust clamp to clamp the silencer pipe to the cat tail "inner" - its been like that more than a year now and doesn't leak and is very strong. I don't expect to have any more problems with it.
stevieb wrote:Hehehe, sorry about the teasing - it just had to be done.

Sadly today's planned trip out has been cancelled due to the clamp/joint between the cat and exhaust beginning to let go (the mild steel of the cat is rotten, so it looks like a new cat is required if I can't get a section welded in - barely worth it though, is it?) so I can't confirm any more than what I learned on a 10-mile round trip yesterday. Sadly there's no exhaust hanger in this area, so if this joint breaks the front end of the exhaust will drop and I don't want to think about the consequences of that happening...

With the new pump installed, right after a 70-odd mile journey (so everything except the pump would've still been warm), after a good bit of spinning to purge out the air, it started up perfectly. It then ran perfectly. It accelerated great. Engine braking was perfect. Mpg was fab. Basically the car felt like I think it's supposed to. The return journey was a couple of hours later, so it'd had time to cool - so I didn't have chance to confirm things were good with a full-on warm start with the new pump, but it ran great again.

Problem solved methinks... :)
Well I hope it does solve your car's remaining problems, because it didn't solve mine. :(

I have to confess I did go ahead and order that Bosch pump the day before you ordered yours, and I fitted it the day before you fitted yours, and.... it didn't fix the lean running at low rpm. :(

The new pump does look and measure a lot better - measured delivery is 1.6 litres/min in the same conditions where my original pump showed 1.2 litres/min, and you can tell from the pitch of the motor that it spins a lot faster. It also has a significantly redesigned pick up system / swirl pot design compared to the original. Interestingly it only has one intake sock instead of two - both pumps have an intake sock directly on the motor inlet, but the original pump assembly had another wedge shaped sock strainer between the tank and the swirl pot. The new one instead has a small venturi vacuum port. (I took some pictures which I may post at some point)

Starting seems to be improved - it fires instantly when cranking and hot starts are far less difficult, almost symptom free so far, which I think is due to the leak-back valve working properly. Wide open throttle at higher rpm also does seem quite a bit more lively than before which may be due to increased flow.

Despite all this according to the O2 reading the car stubbornly continues to run lean (or misfire) under WOT at low rpm in exactly the same way as before. It's also done nothing for the hesitation when snapping the throttle open, or the attempt to stall when flicking the throttle slightly at idle. The O2 reading also shows that the exhaust is momentarily going very lean when it tries to stall when the throttle is flicked.

I'm really baffled by where this lean running is coming from and don't know where to turn next or whether to just give up and cut my losses... :roll:

It could be that while our two cars have shared many similar symptoms and we have gone over a lot of the same ground, that the problem I'm seeing with lean mixture at low rpm is a fault your car is not experiencing. Certainly the hesitation and trying to stall when flicking the throttle at idle is a problem that came LATER on my car - it was not one of the original symptoms I had when the engine started running poorly. It's a symptom that was introduced at some point when something was changed/replaced, but I've long since lost track of what it might haven been. :?

Maybe I have to circle back around to ignition AGAIN.... one thing I've just remembered is that I had one faulty spark plug rubber boot which I replaced, but I don't have a full set of new boots on the car - the rear ignition cassettes are supplied with new boots but new coil packs are NOT, so I have a mixed up mixture of new and old spark plug boots fitted which LOOK ok, but there might be one that is flashing through or has a carbon track.

Citroen only sell them in packs of 4 for about £30 each - which is a fat lot of use on a V6 - I'd need two packs of 4 with 2 boots left over for £60 - no thanks! Does anyone know anywhere else that sells just the spark plug boots by themselves for a more reasonable price ?
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
stevieb
Posts: 265
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 21:14

Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:See the title of this thread ? If you go back to the very beginning you'll see the exhaust broke behind the cat on mine. :twisted: I don't know if its the same kind of joint with an inner and outer skin on the 406 but on the Xantia the outer skin rusts away until it breaks free from the weld and then there is nothing holding it together even though the inner tube is fine.

On mine I ended up (with help from RichardW :) ) cutting 3-4 slots in the pipe from the centre silencer, adding a bit of exhaust sealant and fitting a standard U-bolt style exhaust clamp to clamp the silencer pipe to the cat tail "inner" - its been like that more than a year now and doesn't leak and is very strong. I don't expect to have any more problems with it.
As you'll see from my later post, mine hasn't rotted through just yet. I drove over a carrier bag about six months ago and that's twice since then I've looked at the burned blackened plastic and thought it was a hole in the pipe. I keep waiting for it to go though, as the rest of the original exhaust broke at all the joints, hence the switch to stainless. My current fix is holding so far, but I've done very few miles since the weekend so haven't had a proper run out to test stuff yet.
Mandrake wrote:Well I hope it does solve your car's remaining problems, because it didn't solve mine. :(

I have to confess I did go ahead and order that Bosch pump the day before you ordered yours, and I fitted it the day before you fitted yours, and.... it didn't fix the lean running at low rpm. :(

The new pump does look and measure a lot better - measured delivery is 1.6 litres/min in the same conditions where my original pump showed 1.2 litres/min, and you can tell from the pitch of the motor that it spins a lot faster. It also has a significantly redesigned pick up system / swirl pot design compared to the original. Interestingly it only has one intake sock instead of two - both pumps have an intake sock directly on the motor inlet, but the original pump assembly had another wedge shaped sock strainer between the tank and the swirl pot. The new one instead has a small venturi vacuum port. (I took some pictures which I may post at some point)

Starting seems to be improved - it fires instantly when cranking and hot starts are far less difficult, almost symptom free so far, which I think is due to the leak-back valve working properly. Wide open throttle at higher rpm also does seem quite a bit more lively than before which may be due to increased flow.

Despite all this according to the O2 reading the car stubbornly continues to run lean (or misfire) under WOT at low rpm in exactly the same way as before. It's also done nothing for the hesitation when snapping the throttle open, or the attempt to stall when flicking the throttle slightly at idle. The O2 reading also shows that the exhaust is momentarily going very lean when it tries to stall when the throttle is flicked.

I'm really baffled by where this lean running is coming from and don't know where to turn next or whether to just give up and cut my losses... :roll:

It could be that while our two cars have shared many similar symptoms and we have gone over a lot of the same ground, that the problem I'm seeing with lean mixture at low rpm is a fault your car is not experiencing. Certainly the hesitation and trying to stall when flicking the throttle at idle is a problem that came LATER on my car - it was not one of the original symptoms I had when the engine started running poorly. It's a symptom that was introduced at some point when something was changed/replaced, but I've long since lost track of what it might haven been. :?

Maybe I have to circle back around to ignition AGAIN.... one thing I've just remembered is that I had one faulty spark plug rubber boot which I replaced, but I don't have a full set of new boots on the car - the rear ignition cassettes are supplied with new boots but new coil packs are NOT, so I have a mixed up mixture of new and old spark plug boots fitted which LOOK ok, but there might be one that is flashing through or has a carbon track.

Citroen only sell them in packs of 4 for about £30 each - which is a fat lot of use on a V6 - I'd need two packs of 4 with 2 boots left over for £60 - no thanks! Does anyone know anywhere else that sells just the spark plug boots by themselves for a more reasonable price ?
But you still have the incorrect oxygen sensor fitted, don't you? And do you still have the vacuum leak that you've been meaning to track down for months...? My thought is that you've still got a bunch of niggly minor problems (and wayward sensor readings) there that are compounding and showing themselves with the misfire and lean mixture. Assuming you've cured the power losses further up the rev range and you're no longer suffering with power issues from a warm start or after a long journey then I'd call that a win, because you could only have cured those issues with the new pump. Had you not bought the pump but found other solutions to other problems, you'd still be annoyed at the power issue. Now you've just got those last few hurdles to overcome before it's sorted once and for all =D>

In my case the remaining niggly problems are all suspension-related rather than engine/power-related, mainly due to 406 suspension components not being compatible with the damned awful roads around here... MoT on Friday - wish me luck :?
stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by stevieb »

MoT result:

Three advisories - handbrake needs tightening (as usual) and rear droplink boots are split. Emissions a perfect pass.

Fast idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.003%)
HC = 4ppm (should be less than 200ppm)
Lambda = I forget the figures, but mine fell right in the middle.

Normal idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.003%).

This is after a couple of good runs yesterday, a little bit of Esso's 97RON fuel in the middle, then £20 of BP 95RON right before the test. Not bad, I think you'll agree, especially when all those figures were knocking on the door of a fail this time last year.

As much as the Terraclean treatment improved things a lot, as well as swapping out those iffy injectors, I can't help but think the fuel pump swap has been the most effective single investment. Thanks to you Simon for nudging me back in the direction of the fuel pump as a possible cause - I think it's fixed it at last :)

(The other day I was clearing out the boot of the car and found a post-it from the invisible caravan days last year - one of the list of possible culprits I'd jotted down one lunch-break was "fuel pump", along with a whole host of others. It's amazing what things you dismiss, and what grand ideas you chase instead. I'd never changed a fuel pump before so naturally erred towards jobs I'd be comfortable doing and that I knew were prone to failure).

I may just keep the car a little longer now. New HT leads, rear springs and shocks, adjuster bolts, droplinks, re-align the rear subframe cos it's bl**dy moved again... Not much left to do to get it right...
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote:MoT result:

Three advisories - handbrake needs tightening (as usual) and rear droplink boots are split. Emissions a perfect pass.

Fast idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.003%)
HC = 4ppm (should be less than 200ppm)
Lambda = I forget the figures, but mine fell right in the middle.

Normal idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.003%).
I don't believe those CO readings for a second Steve, are you sure the testers machine wasn't broken or the readings bodged ? ;)

For these engines the CO limit at fast idle is 0.3% not 0.003% and at normal idle the CO limit is 0.5% see the following chart:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... dition.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Back at my first MOT (Aug 2012) when the car was running perfectly the fast CO reading was 0.03% which was already 10 times better than the limit. 0.000% is not believable in any way, it must be an error.
As much as the Terraclean treatment improved things a lot, as well as swapping out those iffy injectors, I can't help but think the fuel pump swap has been the most effective single investment. Thanks to you Simon for nudging me back in the direction of the fuel pump as a possible cause - I think it's fixed it at last :)
So is it still running well or has old behaviour snuck back in yet ?
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote: But you still have the incorrect oxygen sensor fitted, don't you? And do you still have the vacuum leak that you've been meaning to track down for months...? My thought is that you've still got a bunch of niggly minor problems (and wayward sensor readings) there that are compounding and showing themselves with the misfire and lean mixture. Assuming you've cured the power losses further up the rev range and you're no longer suffering with power issues from a warm start or after a long journey then I'd call that a win, because you could only have cured those issues with the new pump. Had you not bought the pump but found other solutions to other problems, you'd still be annoyed at the power issue. Now you've just got those last few hurdles to overcome before it's sorted once and for all =D>
Time for an update - with the help of RichardW I got the oxygen sensor changed over last Saturday, and also treated the gearbox to its first oil change in nearly 12 months. Oil was somewhat dirty but not unreasonably so given that it had done about 5000 miles in that time. Gear shifts are noticeably smoother now and had been starting to get a little bit cranky recently. Changing the oxygen sensor turned out to be pretty straight forward as the previous one was only fitted a year ago so wasn't seized in like the original! :twisted:

The new oxygen sensor definitely works properly and shows that the heater in the old sensor was totally inadequate. If I start the car cold and let it idle the original simply wouldn't heat up at all - after maybe 5-10 minutes there would be a tiny bit of activity but its not until the car was driven a good few minutes that exhaust heat would warm up the sensor and get it switching properly. Extended idling was then letting it cool down again too.

The new one starts switching in about 30 seconds from a cold start and is switching across the full 100-800mV range in under a minute, just at idle. There was a lot of discussion way back in this thread about how long the oxygen sensor in this engine should take to warm up, with some suggesting 3-4 minutes is normal, well turns out its not normal. It should be working 100% within one minute, so anyone whose oxygen sensor takes much longer doesn't have the right one fitted!

Here's a video showing the oxygen sensor response from first starting the engine and how quickly it starts working at idle - in this case the engine was already warmed up but had been off for 10 minutes, however even on a stone cold engine the sensor warms up just as quick:

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



The two horizontal lines its just kissing at the top and bottom at the end of the video are 100mV and 800mV, so when the signal reaches full amplitude that shows the sensor is fully warmed up.

Has it made any difference to the intermittent low power complaint ? Not really, but I wasn't expecting it to as I already know that the low power complaint is happening in open loop mode when the O2 sensor is ignored. That doesn't mean that it didn't need swapping though when the old one was the wrong sensor and didn't warm up properly as that was causing additional problems including rough idle and intermittent fault codes on the Lexia, and may have been the reason why my lambda was a bit off at the last emissions test. I'm happy that I'll get a better lambda reading at the next MOT with the correct sensor fitted as it won't require exhaust heat to get the sensor up to temperature and working accurately during the emissions test. (Even holding it at 2500 rpm with no load as per the emissions test procedure took a long time to warm up the old one, and still not completely)

Power has been up and down a lot in the last few days - on Saturday morning I drove to the shops and back and performance was terrible - that annoying problem where the power is low at low rpm and suddenly jumps up as you hit about 3500 rpm (really noticeable accelerating up a hill in first gear) was back with a vengeance and the car just felt flat and lifeless with no poke at all. Engine off for 10 minutes then back on again to drive to Richard's and suddenly it was much better again - nothing else touched. Performance was OK to Richard's and back - not terrible but not fantastic either.

Sunday morning I had to go out and performance was terrible again. Very laggy throttle response, no low torque, it could hardly get out of its own way up a hill in a higher gear. So bad that I whipped out the new coil pack and fitted my original just on a hunch thinking surely it must be misfiring - no change at all, still terrible. I then fitted the new coil pack back in but this time swapped the spark plug boots for three different ones just on the off chance - no change at all, still awful.

I then took the battery off for 10 minutes, put it back on, Vrooommmmm!! Massive, massive increase in power and throttle response, a complete transformation. Plenty of low down torque, instant throttle response, not perfect but I'd say 80% of its best. I still saw intermittent spells of lean running at WOT at low rpm though.

I didn't drive far on Sunday then on Monday night after work I had to do a few mile run to pick something up - admittedly weather was dry and sunny (for a change!) so that could be a contributing factor after weeks of dampness, but it went like a scalded cat, particularly with the gearbox in sport. :twisted: Super throttle response (zero lag) tons of power - flick the throttle down in sport mode and it was whiplash inducing wheel spinning results. No bump in power at 3500 rpm. Probably as good as I've ever seen it.

So what the heck is going on ? Going from barge to bat out of hell in just a few days and the only change was an ECU reset ?

I think this is further validation of my theory that the timing is getting knocked back due to pinking under load with a lean mixture. Unless an injector or coil is intermittently failing on me (doesn't seem likely when the ECU reset instantly restored performance) I think the major loss of power is coming from the ECU retarding the timing.

As well as small on the fly adjustments to the timing in response to knock sensor stimulus the ECU also has "octane maps" for different grades of petrol. Different ECU's use different knock retard strategies, and nobody really knows exactly how this ECU works, but from what I've read it will be something like this:

There are multiple base timing maps for different octane ranges. So it might have one for 98, one for 95, and one for 91 for example. Within each map its allowed to make small corrections to optimise running - if it pinks slightly at a certain rpm and load it will cut a degree or two off at that point on the fly and remember that temporarily. These small corrections are fairly malleable so it will sneak the timing forward again in small increments to "feel out" that safe limit. It's possible that turning the key off and on clears the small corrections which it learns on the fly, or at least triggers a re-learn.

However if it finds itself pinking heavily despite the maximum allowable correction to the timing within the current timing map it will eventually select a lower octane map where the base timing is lower to begin with, and it starts the fine tuning process all over again. For example it may have found that on the 98 map it was pinking a lot and correcting it was out of range so it switched to 95. In the lower octane map the timing is less advanced at nearly ALL load/rpm points, not just those that occur near maximum load, so overall performance will drop and stay lower as it won't switch back to a higher octane map readily - either a battery off reset is required, or a very long period of time (hundreds of miles) of driving with no pinking detected will eventually cause it to switch back.

(I'm sure some of you have noticed that if you go from low octane to high octane petrol you need to disconnect the battery so the ECU quickly "learns" about the change of petrol, otherwise you can can go through a whole tank of petrol with no performance improvement as the ECU is still using a low octane map thus not utilising the possible timing advance)

What I think happens is that if the car is running chronically lean under heavy load for long periods of time when the engine is hot the pinking that is detected by the knock sensor forces the ECU to select a lower octane map even on high octane fuel, but even on the next map down it may still pink, so after a while it goes two maps down (assuming it has more than two maps) and performance drops even further. Once this happens performance is flat under all conditions and it doesn't recover quickly - either a lot of driving without pinking or a battery off reset is required.

How many octane maps does it have ? Good question, it definitely has at least two, I'm guessing it has at least three - 98, 95 (those are the two octanes the engine is quoted to run on) and probably an "emergency" or "limp" mode octane map that it will drop to if the petrol is below say 93 - which it would select as a protective measure if someone filled up with 91 octane, which is available in many markets where the car was sold. (New Zealand for example still has 91 and 95 octane at the pump, or at least it did in 2009 when I left)

If it didn't have an octane map lower than 95 then the engine could suffer serious damage (overheating, detonation etc) if driven hard on 91 octane, or heaven forbid 89 octane available in some parts of the world... so it makes sense to me that it would have an octane map of last resort LOWER than the normal minimum allowed (95) that runs really conservatively retarded to let the car still function but protect the engine from damage when using the wrong fuel. The "invisible caravan" may simply be this octane map of last resort where a lot of power is lost due to retarded timing, and once you're stuck in that map its hard to get out of it without manual intervention like a reset.

The "throttle lag" symptom we've both seen at times its very likely a symptom of very retarded timing - its normal for the timing to be retarded momentarily when you step on the throttle quickly (as that's when pinking happens most easily) and then creep back forward again over a fraction of a second (say 1/10) as the moment of risk passes - perhaps in the "emergency" timing map it takes a lot of timing off when you step on the throttle and only very slowly returns it over half a second or more - thus "throttle lag". There's no lag in the application of fuel, but without timing advance little power is made.

Under load a lean mixture will pink far more easily than a rich mixture for a given octane, one of the reasons why ECU's always fuel the mixture rich at WOT - not just for increased power but also to avoid pinking. A higher octane petrol pinks a bit less when the mixture is lean, thus the tendency for the timing to be retarded is less with the higher octane petrol but its not the cure.

At the end of the day it should not be reading lean at WOT, and although it's possible that our two cars have had different reasons for running lean, I think that is still the root cause of trouble for both, and that the intermittent power loss that has been driving us around the bend for over a year is the ECU's response to detected engine pinking, at first retarding the timing small amounts on the fly (power fluctuations when accelerating) and then dropping back to a low octane map causing even more semi-permanent power loss. (The invisible caravan)

Hopefully you've found the cause of leanness on yours, I still haven't found what's causing it on mine... :?

One thing I want to try as a test is to deliberately reduce the air intake flow at wide throttle a bit - I was thinking about stuffing a block of open cell foam in the bottom of the air filter box underneath the air filter to deliberately restrict the flow a bit - at light to medium throttle the oxygen sensor and MAP sensor should compensate for the increased restriction in the intake, but at wide open throttle neither O2 or MAP sensor are used - only RPM signal and throttle opening to calculate injection time, so reducing the WOT air flow should richen the mixture at WOT and maybe prove my point even if its not the cause of the problem.

Some reading I was doing yesterday suggests that Speed Density systems (MAP, not MAF) like this are quite sensitive to changes in both the exhaust and intake restriction, and if the restriction is increased or decreased in either it has an effect on the open loop mixture.

Specifically, an exhaust restriction will cause it to run rich at WOT, (less air flow than expected at WOT) while an exhaust that has too little flow restriction will cause it to run lean at WOT. (Which explains why I lost so much power when my exhaust broke - it actually relies on a certain amount of restriction in the flow - if its not there the flow increases and it runs lean)

Likewise an intake path before the butterfly which is too free flowing (filter missing for example) would cause it to run lean at WOT while an intake restriction would cause it to run rich at WOT. I think this explains why WOT performance is so poor when the air filter box is removed entirely - with no filter and input sock there is far less restriction so the engine breathes better and air flow increases, but because the ECU can't detect this and therefore can't adapt to the change by increasing injection time you end up with a lean mixture and a loss of power. (more air flow is not a good thing unless accompanied by more fuel...)

A MAF system can compensate for both these problems as it measures actual air flow, but a MAP system cannot detect or compensate for these changes as flow is assumed from pressure and RPM - the computer is programmed with assumed flow restrictions for both intake and exhaust so is effectively working "blind" or by "dead reckoning" at WOT...(so a straight through de-catted exhaust or baffle-less muffler would actually cause you to lose power as it would run leaner than normal!)

I'm also going to see if I can find a way to get my scope monitoring the knock sensor output to see if I can see any evidence of pinking when the performance starts to go to custard...
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
stevieb
Posts: 265
Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 21:14

Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:
stevieb wrote:MoT result:

Three advisories - handbrake needs tightening (as usual) and rear droplink boots are split. Emissions a perfect pass.
I don't believe those CO readings for a second Steve, are you sure the testers machine wasn't broken or the readings bodged ? ;)

For these engines the CO limit at fast idle is 0.3% not 0.003% and at normal idle the CO limit is 0.5% see the following chart:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... dition.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fast idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.003%)
HC = 4ppm (should be less than 200ppm)
Lambda = I forget the figures, but mine fell right in the middle.

Normal idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.003%).

Back at my first MOT (Aug 2012) when the car was running perfectly the fast CO reading was 0.03% which was already 10 times better than the limit. 0.000% is not believable in any way, it must be an error.
As much as the Terraclean treatment improved things a lot, as well as swapping out those iffy injectors, I can't help but think the fuel pump swap has been the most effective single investment. Thanks to you Simon for nudging me back in the direction of the fuel pump as a possible cause - I think it's fixed it at last :)
So is it still running well or has old behaviour snuck back in yet ?
Mine is still running fine, although I've had a few moments of the drone around 3,000rpm, each time after a warm start. Other than that, mpg is good, power is good - I have little doubt the fuel pump replacement has sorted something... I haven't tried an ECU reset, though I have a feeling I really ought to. Maybe I'll sort it this afternoon.

I should correct my MoT emissions results:

Fast idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.200%)
HC = 4ppm (should be less than 200ppm)
Lambda = 1.002 (should be between 0.97 and 1.030)

Normal idle:
CO = 0.000% (should be less than 0.300%).

I got the zeros in the wrong place on those CO readings :oops:

Last year's figures were thus:

Fast idle:
CO = 0.297% (should be less than 0.300%)
HC = 32ppm (should be less than 200ppm)
Lambda = 1.024 (should be between 0.970 and 1.030)

Normal idle:
CO = 0.250% (should be less than 0.500%)


I notice the limits have changed since last year.

As for the accuracy of the test centre's equipment, I was the second test booked-in that day and it's the same centre I've used for years now (though I certainly wouldn't call them "mates" who might be willing to manipulate results to get my car through :wink: ), so I don't have any reason to question their results or equipment. The equipment is only a couple of years old too, so far from being past its best. This test was carried out with a less-than-a-week-old fuel pump and no ECU reset, so whether that's slewed the figures a little I don't know. Very unlikely, but who knows? I am running with a K&N High Flow air filter and a stainless exhaust that may or may not be flowing more freely than an OEM one would so is it possible these might also have an affect on the readings in some way by influencing the mixture...? Dunno... I do know my old 405TD emissions results were better with the K&N fitted, though I never stopped to question why, other than assuming it allowed the engine to breathe a lot easier.

Back to yours Simon, you've had exhaust problems. Are you sure the replacement parts in the exhaust system have the same flow characteristics as OEM? If your exhaust is flowing too freely, but you have a slightly restrictive air filter, would that cause a lean mixture? Or the opposite? I'm wondering if my exhaust, which I presume flows more freely, is being compensated by the free-flowing air filter. And now the fuel supply can keep up, things are fine, albeit not exactly factory spec. I'd be tempted to switch air filter brand (different materials for different purposes) or try to somehow improve the inlet flow, rather than restrict it if I were you. That's just my thought, though of course you may well be right in thinking the flow at the filter is too much when matched with the exhaust.
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

I still don't see how you can get less than 0.001% when it was close to failing last year... ;) But anyway, not important.

Air flow through the engine definitely affects the performance, but not in the way you'd expect - when my exhaust broke at the joint between the cat and the centre silencer allowing the exhaust to mostly escape just behind the cat, (and therefore reducing the back pressure) apart from the loud boom it COMPLETELY killed the performance of the engine. It broke a couple of miles from home (fortunately!) and I could barely get up the hills to get back home - I was needing 2nd gear to struggle up a hill at 30mph, I couldn't get up it in 3rd, it was that bad. Anything beyond about 30% throttle made a lot more noise but no more power.

Likewise although less dramatic, if I leave the air filter box completely off (as I did when I went for a quick lap of a few blocks to heat up the gearbox oil so I could check the level) performance at light to medium throttle is ok, but anything past medium throttle just makes a lot of noise and boom but no extra power - doesn't make sense at first glance that reducing exhaust or intake restriction would limit maximum power but you have to think about the mixture balance.

A MAF system measures the air flow directly so will always get the fuelling right in the face of an exhaust restriction (or an exhaust that is too free flowing) or an intake restriction or intake that is too free flowing.

On a MAP system the air flow is inferred from rpm, manifold pressure, intake air temperature and known volumetric efficiency curves of the engine which in themselves make assumptions about the flow restriction of the exhaust and intake system. A higher MAP pressure reading for a given RPM normally means more air flow so increases the injection pulse.

If you have an exhaust restriction the air flow at a given RPM and throttle opening reduces, (that much is obvious) however the manifold vacuum drops as the engine can't work as well as a vacuum pump when the output is blocked, so manifold pressure rises higher than it should be. So you have reduced air flow, but the ECU thinks the air flow is MORE because of the higher manifold pressure so adds more fuel so you end up running rich.

In the other direction if the normal exhaust restriction (of the mufflers etc) is removed air flow increases for the same rpm and throttle opening but that causes an increase in manifold vacuum, the lower manifold pressure registered by the MAP sensor makes the computer think LESS air is going into the cylinders so it reduces injection pulse and you run lean. If the exhaust falls off completely that might be enough to make it run very lean.

You're changing the volumetric efficiency of the engine which is assumed to be a constant in the calculations...

An intake restriction has a similar effect. At WOT the MAP reading is maximum (ambient pressure) so the ECU provides a fixed amount of fuel (based on RPM and air temperature) based on the assume air flow. If the intake is not restricted as much as it should be air flow will be greater so the mixture will go lean without the ECU knowing. Conversely a clogged inlet filter would make it run rich. At lighter throttles where the MAP sensor and O2 sensor can provide feedback the ECU would not be fooled, only at WOT.

Of course I could still be looking at an injector flow problem...could I have exchanged one set of dodgy injectors for another... I don't know....
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:I still don't see how you can get less than 0.001% when it was close to failing last year... ;)
Terraclean mainly. A couple of oil changes. Replaced sticky injectors. New plugs. The highflow filter and presumably free-flowing exhaust which has had a potential leak at the cat/centre-box joint fixed. Regular motorway miles now as opposed to lots of short journeys before last year's test. Oh, and avoiding Shell fuel for however long it's been (though I might try some now I have the new pump in and see what happens).

I still think your problem might be the mis-match between exhaust and air filter Simon. I fitted an aftermarket DIY exhaust some years ago (I think onto my old 405TD - pre-cat diesel), and couldn't believe how much lighter the sections were than the genuine (and very crumbly) Pug bits that came off. My feeling was that it was the silencers that were where the weight had been shaved off, so presumably these aftermarket ones are built down to the minimum required to get a car through the MoT noise-wise. If this is the case, then it's entirely possible your exhaust is a lot more free-flowing than factory spec but the air filter can't keep up, upsetting the manifold vacuum you're talking about.

I have a little experiment with air filters of my own which I do annually - I keep a spare el-cheapo foam filter for those times my K&N is being cleaned - and I find a definite change in the engine characteristics with the foam filter installed. I assume the mixture is being enriched as the engine gains a lot of torque below 1500rpm - plenty of pull from tickover - but as soon as I make demands on the revs with my right boot I really noticed the power drop-off as it just doesn't want to pick up as well. Returning to the K&N (by now fully cleaned) brings things back to normal.

Of course the other possible culprit is the MAP sensor itself. I replaced mine with a genuine spec Bosch one as part of the invisible caravan issue last year and it made a huge difference. Prior to this I'd been swapping back and forth between the two I had, to ascertain which was playing ball and which wasn't. The Intermotor one that was fitted wasn't all that old but according to measurements taken after I'd replaced it, it had gone WAY out of range. Even the previous tired Bosch one (that I hadn't got around to throwing away) gave multimeter readings within range. Do you have your old sensor to swap back Simon? It might be worth a try if vacuum/vacuum readings are in any doubt.
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

Yes I do have my original MAP sensor - in fact I think its on the car right now. I say think, because the replacement one I have is also a genuine Bosch sensor and they're absolutely indistinguishable despite 15 years of age difference between them!

I've swapped them over a few times and honestly there is no difference between them, so I'm confident my issue is not the MAP sensor. I've also monitored the output of the MAP sensor on my scope on a few test drives and can't see anything wrong with the output at all.

More importantly - at the wide throttle openings where I'm seeing lean running reported by the O2 sensor the MAP sensor is already reporting maximum voltage by then (maximum pressure / zero vacuum) so the ECU is already being told the engine is at maximum load.

The TPS signal is also working perfectly, tested on the scope, and the air intake and coolant temperature sensors have been tested with the Lexia and are giving sensible readings.

I've monitored the crankshaft sensor signal on the scope and it too is perfect - about 5 volts peak-to-peak at 2000 rpm which is more than enough from a variable reluctance sensor. So ALL input signals that contribute towards calculation of injector pulse width in open loop mode have been tested and are working normally.

That means if its still running lean at WOT its not due to the ECU calculating too small an injector pulse width due to a sensor problem. The ECU is doing what it should be.

It has to be due to something the ECU can't detect - low fuel volume delivery, low fuel pressure, low injector flow rate, or excessive airflow due to exhaust/inlet changes.

Although a change in the exhaust/inlet flow rates could cause it to run lean, I don't think that's the issue - and the main reason is that I started to notice poor performance a few weeks before the exhaust broke, also at the time when I changed the old exhaust system to the new one I didn't notice any change in performance, likewise when I changed the air filter it made no apparent difference to the performance. So for those reasons I don't think it can be that.

Low fuel volume delivery - the new fuel pump has a measured 30% increase in flow rate over the old pump but it hasn't made any real difference to the problem so its not that. Fuel pressure - the regulator in the car at the moment delivers 2.8 bars (its the one that came with the 406 rail) and the original delivered 2.7 bars - both are a bit low but bear in mind that the car was originally running perfectly on the regulator that only produces 2.7 bars, so I don't think that alone is enough to explain the symptoms.

Last weekend I went a bit further with my scope to try to analyse what is happening. The first thing I did is put it across the knock sensor output. (At the ECU terminals)

Quite interesting. The first thing I noticed is that the engine is rather noisy at high rpm, at least according to the knock sensor! Below about 1500 rpm there is little activity on the scope, as the rpm goes up the "noise" on the scope goes up dramatically, by the time you get to about 3000 rpm there is about 500mV peak-peak of semi-random noise, (from the mechanical noise of the engine transmitted through the block) it's no wonder that the knock sensor input thresholds are higher at higher rpm to minimise false triggering. Of course without comparing it with another car I have no idea whether it's noisier than average of course.

Knocking looks different to random noise though, it should look like a short "sine burst" at about 6.3Khz, repeating once per power stroke, and its hard to pick that out visually on a scope amongst the other noise (a spectrum analyser would make it MUCH easier) but I'm fairly sure I did see intermittent examples of knocking at 1500-2500 rpm under load.

Not always reproducible but it happened often enough in a single test drive that I'm reasonably satisfied that if the ECU is retarding the timing due to the knock sensor the knock sensor IS genuinely detecting actual knock, not just getting overwhelmed by the mechanical noise of a worn, noisy engine.

The next thing I wanted to check was to try to watch the ignition timing in real time - and I came up with a very clever solution, if I do say so myself. :-D (Jim will love this if he's reading :) )

Working on the assumption that the injector timing is fixed in relation to the crank position (no VVT on this engine) I displayed both injector voltage waveform and coil primary voltage on two different traces and triggered on the injector pulse. Here is an example:

Image

The cyan trace is the injector waveform, the yellow is the coil primary, both of Cylinders 1/5 in this case.

If you follow the cyan trace from the left it starts at 12 volts while the injector is off, where it drops to the bottom is near zero volts - this is the injector on period, where it spikes right up near the top is the moment the injector is turned off and the voltage rises to about 80 volts from the collapse of the magnetic field.

The yellow trace for the coil is similar - at the left the coil is off, when it drops down the coil is charging (the dwell period) where it spikes up high the coil is firing the spark, the wriggly line after it drops down a bit is the "spark line" which shows that the spark is occurring in the combustion cylinder.

By trial and error I found the point where the injector turns OFF is fixed relative to crank timing - when the injector pulse width increases with more throttle it opens sooner rather than closing later, so I set the trigger to trigger on the point where the injector turns off.

There is a LOT of information in this capture! Especially watching it change under driving conditions. You can see the injector pulse width, the coil dwell time, the ignition spark line (shows you that the spark occurred in the cylinder and not externally) and the ignition timing - if the timing is retarded the whole yellow waveform moves to the right relative to the blue one.

I checked all three pairs of injectors/coils, and this is what I learnt:

1) All three injector waveforms are perfect, and identical to each other during the test drives. The large voltage spike when they close shows that the magnetic field collapse is strong and indirectly shows that the injector is drawing a normal amount of current. If any injector had a high resistance connection (wiring etc) that spike would be lower than the rest but they were all identical. So I'm satisfied that there is no electrical drive problem to the injectors that would cause a lean condition.

2) All three coil waveforms were identical - most importantly the "spark line" is present and very close to identical on all three even under wide throttle which pretty much rules out any sort of ignition problem. If the spark was jumping outside the cylinder due to ignition lead breakdown or not jumping at all there would be no spark line for example. The presence of a healthy spark line on all three confirms the ignition is working and firing properly.

3) Ignition timing is indeed a lot more retarded below 2500 rpm than it is above, especially when low rpm torque is lacking. Looking at timing on a time scale instead of a degrees scale requires a little bit of interpretation - part of a normal advance curve is rpm related - the higher the engine rpm the more advance in degrees you need - but this is to give a constant advance in milliseconds. So if you need 10 degrees at 2000 rpm but 20 degrees at 4000 rpm, that is actually the same advance in milliseconds. (Combustion takes the same time regardless of engine rpm...)

Looking at it on the scope you're seeing the advance in milliseconds, not degrees, so the timing advance with rpm is automatically factored out, leaving the corrections for engine load and knock feedback. What I saw was that when you stamp on the pedal quickly the timing is instantly retarded a LOT for a fraction of a second (to minimise knocking during a momentary lean spot) then returns to normal, (as expected) and that between 2500-6000 rpm the advance in milliseconds is pretty much constant for constant throttle over a wide throttle range.

Below about 2500 rpm the timing drops back a lot, very quickly (it fully transitions between about 2400-2600) and between 1500-2500 it is considerably retarded compared to above 2500, even with a light throttle. I then tried a battery off reset for 10 minutes and went for another test drive - the timing above 2500 rpm was the same as before, but as well as the performance improving the timing between 1500-2500 rpm was quite obviously more advanced than it had been just before the reset - not as advanced as at higher rpm, but maybe halfway towards that figure, and although I didn't try to calculate it exactly it must have been many degrees.

So I have my first conclusive, objective proof that the timing is indeed getting retarded excessively below 2500 rpm when the engine is performing poorly, and that the battery off reset is temporarily restoring at least some of the lost timing - until now it has been a theory with no hard evidence, not any longer. =D>

So we have:

1) Definite, somewhat intermittent lean running at WOT from 1500 to 2500 rpm. (proven by monitoring the oxygen sensor on the scope)

2) Fairly convincing signs of knocking being detected by the knock sensor from 1500 to 2500 rpm. (proven by monitoring the knock sensor on the scope)

3) Definite proof of the timing being unusually retarded below 2500 rpm. (proven by monitoring the injection/coil pulse timing, then observing a big difference when re-testing after a battery off reset)

So we're back to intermittent lean running as the root cause of trouble with retarded timing being a "knock on" effect (ha ha) from the lean running, and I believe that most of the loss of torque and throttle responsiveness actually comes from the timing retard that gets applied rather than from the lean condition itself, even though being lean seems to be the root cause of trouble.

So I think I'm down to the point where it can only be low and/or intermittent flow rate from the injectors causing this lean condition. To be honest it has actually got a bit worse since I swapped the injectors over for the second hand ones - despite all the testing and cleaning I gave them before I fitted them they may actually be worse than the originals!

The stumble flooring the accelerator at idle has actually got worse with the S/H injectors as well. :(

So I think what I'm going to have to do is send my original set of injectors away to be professionally tested and ultrasonic cleaned - at least I won't be without the car while they're away!

I really can't see anything else that could be causing it to be so lean under WOT and stumbling when flicking the throttle when so much else has been ruled out...
Last edited by Mandrake on 26 Apr 2014, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote: (Jim will love this if he's reading :) )
I am and I am :-D

Gosh, that's some impressive diagnosis Simon [-o< So, if an ECU disconnect reset temporarily restores a bit of normality it shows it's learning from whatever the problem is and subsequently acting upon it.

It'll be interesting to see what happens after the injectors have been refurbed and refitted...

Not much else left really now.. I take it you've swapped the cat to eliminate that?

Have you checked the fuel pressure at the rail using a gauge?

Sorry, I'm sure these topics have been discussed in my absence...

Looking forward to the next instalment :wink:
Jim

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stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by stevieb »

I'm not sure how injector flow rates would vary like they do, unless it's an electrical gremlin causing it - dampness or a corroded connection somewhere. You now know you've got strong and consistent fuel supply to the injectors from the new pump, so even if the injector filters or pintels are a bit gummed-up I wouldn't expect so much variability. I wonder if the cleaned-up injectors are exaggerating an existing problem elsewhere... When I replaced my plugs (the old ones being WELL past their best), I found the exhaust drone at 3000rpm I had on bad day got WORSE, but on good days the car was much better - the new plugs just multiplied the problem, whatever it was.

Have you tried capturing and overlaying the injector and ignition waveforms of behaving AND misbehaving for each cylinder-pair, to see if there are any more subtle differences? I still think there's more to be discovered there.

Having said that, I'm sure I read elsewhere when I was investigating my Invisible Caravan problem that noisy/worn injectors might generate frequencies that can be picked up by a knock sensor. I'm not sure I buy that theory, but if you're right that it's got worse with the replacement injectors it might just explain it.

Speaking of the exhaust drone, with no ECU reset since the new fuel pump mine still does it occasionally between 2,000 and 3,000rpm (though it's a lot quieter than it was) and when it appears it's matched with a very slight drop in power, but only on humid days and it's only been doing it since I clipped the ignition leads back into the plastic guides (I'd left them loose for the previous couple of months). My ignition leads are still the factory originals, so I have little doubt they're the cause. Outside of this, the car is flying and drinking a lot less than it was with a consistent and easy 40-60mpg in the 50mph roadworks on the M1 (it'll manage the same on the flat at 70mph too, but at that speed it drops off a lot more on a hill). Once I've replaced the noisy suspension components (all Delphi, and all less than a year old), the ignition leads are next on my list. I'd hoped to be running a new car by now, but no chance, so it's time for a new timing belt soon. Wish me luck with that little job...
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:
Mandrake wrote: (Jim will love this if he's reading :) )
Gosh, that's some impressive diagnosis Simon [-o< So, if an ECU disconnect reset temporarily restores a bit of normality it shows it's learning from whatever the problem is and subsequently acting upon it.
Yes that's the theory. Resetting the ECU clears the knock retard table back to defaults so the quite considerable loss of torque due to retarded timing goes away for a while. As the engine will only tend to knock when its hot not when its cold if you only drive it for short trips afterwards it doesn't warm up enough to start knocking heavily so the timing stays normal(ish). But take it on a good long run where it fully warms up and then start lugging it in higher gears (as the gearbox likes to do when it warms up) and the engine knocks and causes the ECU to learn retarded timing which it is then very reluctant to un-learn.
It'll be interesting to see what happens after the injectors have been refurbed and refitted...

Not much else left really now..
Indeed, there really is not much else left!

I'm still encouraged by the fact that stevieb swapping his injectors did seem to solve the problem for him - maybe he was a bit luckier than me with his second hand injectors and got a better set than I did. As I mentioned earlier 3 of mine were well and truly stuck closed and unresponsive when I first started testing them before fitting them, one of them took over half an hour of patient thumping with a screw driver (while mounted in the rail) with the injector tester running on constant pulse before it finally sprang into life...
I take it you've swapped the cat to eliminate that?
No I haven't swapped the cat, but I'm satisfied its not due to an exhaust restriction for a few reasons:

1) I did a back pressure test through the oxygen sensor port when I swapped the oxygen sensor - no measurable back pressure at all at 3000 rpm.

2) There's very little loss of power at high rpm - I can fly up a hill at full throttle at 4000-5000 rpm in 3rd without any problem at all. A restricted exhaust would strangle the engine at high rpm before low rpm. Nearly all the power loss I'm seeing is below 2500 rpm where an exhaust restriction would have proportionally a lot less effect.

3) On a speed density system like this an exhaust restriction will actually cause the engine to run too rich not too lean - all the sources I've read are unanimous on this. The explanation being that an exhaust restriction will reduce the total air flow through the engine (obviously) but at the same time the manifold pressure will rise because the vacuum pumping ability of the engine is diminished due to exhaust back pressure.

A higher manifold pressure is interpreted by a speed density system to mean greater air flow so fuelling is increased. Reduced air flow and increased fuelling leads to it running too rich in open loop mode.
Have you checked the fuel pressure at the rail using a gauge?
Yes, on quite a number of occasions. That's how I know each of the regulators I have is slightly different. One thing I have not tested because its just too difficult to set up a test is to measure the fuel pressure while driving under WOT load, to make sure pressure isn't dropping under load...

However there is now a new fuel pump in the car with at least 30% higher delivery than the old pump (I did measure the delivery) and I also swapped the fuel filter again, so there is nothing that would be causing the fuel pressure to drop under load. So while I would have been happier if I could have taken a direct measurement of fuel pressure under load while the car was symptomatic, I'm fairly satisfied that there is no problem with fuel delivery from the pump.

So injectors it has to be.
Last edited by Mandrake on 26 Apr 2014, 19:33, edited 1 time in total.
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Unread post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote:I'm not sure how injector flow rates would vary like they do, unless it's an electrical gremlin causing it - dampness or a corroded connection somewhere. You now know you've got strong and consistent fuel supply to the injectors from the new pump, so even if the injector filters or pintels are a bit gummed-up I wouldn't expect so much variability.
The symptoms are variable but I don't think its because the flow rate is varying unpredictably, its just that the conditions which trigger lean running and engine knocking are specific to certain rpm/load combinations, so its only when you frequently drive the car under particular conditions (low rpm, high load, warmed up engine) that the engine knocks and the timing gets further and further knocked back.

Keep in mind that only when the oxygen sensor is being used can the mixture be regulated precisely, in open loop mode the mixture is pre-calculated based on a lot of assumptions so it is not precisely calculated or maintained. In normal open loop conditions you're always running very rich (accelerating, sudden throttle snaps etc) on the order of 12/1 to 13/1 so small fluctuations in mixture won't have any effect. But when you're running too lean in open loop small fluctuations and errors will swing it between rich and lean. It's only because its running lean that the small variations are noticeable.
Have you tried capturing and overlaying the injector and ignition waveforms of behaving AND misbehaving for each cylinder-pair, to see if there are any more subtle differences? I still think there's more to be discovered there.
Yes I did exactly that - tested each of the three groups and compared them.

My conclusion was that the individual injector and coil waveforms on all three groups looked completely normal both when the engine was running well and when it was lacking in power, and there was no difference between the three groups either to suggest any significant cylinder to cylinder variations.

The only thing that changed between running well at low rpm and running poorly at low rpm was the timing between injectors and ignition - eg the ignition timing was more advanced when it was running well at low rpm (after the reset) and less advanced when running poorly at low rpm, while there was no change in timing at high rpm.

So I don't think there is anything wrong with the coil or injector drive signals - apart from the ignition timing not being as advanced as it should be, but that is the ECU doing that deliberately in response to knock.
Having said that, I'm sure I read elsewhere when I was investigating my Invisible Caravan problem that noisy/worn injectors might generate frequencies that can be picked up by a knock sensor. I'm not sure I buy that theory, but if you're right that it's got worse with the replacement injectors it might just explain it.
I think the injectors causing just the right noise to trigger the knock sensor is extremely unlikely. It's hard to put into words but after watching the knock sensor output on the scope in relation to how the car was performing I can't see that being a possibility. At idle and low rpm there was almost no output from the knock sensor even though the injectors would be ticking just as loudly at low rpm as high rpm. (Just less often)

So if its got worse with the second hand injectors then I think its only either a reduction in flow rate or there may be one or two that are a bit intermittent/sticky.
Speaking of the exhaust drone, with no ECU reset since the new fuel pump mine still does it occasionally between 2,000 and 3,000rpm (though it's a lot quieter than it was) and when it appears it's matched with a very slight drop in power, but only on humid days and it's only been doing it since I clipped the ignition leads back into the plastic guides (I'd left them loose for the previous couple of months). My ignition leads are still the factory originals, so I have little doubt they're the cause. Outside of this, the car is flying and drinking a lot less than it was with a consistent and easy 40-60mpg in the 50mph roadworks on the M1 (it'll manage the same on the flat at 70mph too, but at that speed it drops off a lot more on a hill). Once I've replaced the noisy suspension components (all Delphi, and all less than a year old), the ignition leads are next on my list.
It does sound a bit like your ignition leads are a bit tired - they're not particularly robust, I managed to put a tiny nick in the first new set I fitted and they started flashing over to the chassis exactly at the plastic guide you mention, so its possible yours have nicks there too if the leads have been in and out of the guides many times looking for the invisible caravan... ;)
Simon

2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1978 CX 2400
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD