Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm running)

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KennyW
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by KennyW »

Simon,

To add to Jim's reply re the cat bolts etc try and have something in place which catches the springs nuts and washers, because if not, the disappear in between the steering rack front height corrector and the sub frame and you will spend ages trying find them again.

I speak from experience :-D :wink:

Kenny
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by RichardW »

Simon

I'm about next weekend, so should be able to do it if you get the bits. Sadly no where out of the rain to work - well, that's not strictly true - I do have a large garage, but it's rather occupied with the Visa and assorted building and baby s**t!!

If the length is about right you might just be able to slide on the repair piece and clamp it up - which will avoid the need to remove the CAT - it will need to come off for sure to weld it, as we'll need to grind off the old weld bead and then put a ring all the way around. Should be able to weld the other part onto the silencer as well no problems. getting the Cat off can't be worse than an HDi....can it???? I've got a good selection of wobble bars and deep sockets to help. Even if the repair piece is not the right diameter, the angle grinder will make short work of putting a slot in it to shrink or enlarge it as required.

You can bring your Lexia and stick it on the C4 Picasso - I'm interested to know if the evaporator temperature sensor is working....!
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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:Simon

I'm about next weekend, so should be able to do it if you get the bits. Sadly no where out of the rain to work - well, that's not strictly true - I do have a large garage, but it's rather occupied with the Visa and assorted building and baby (-expletive removed-)!!
No problem,

The weather report for next weekend is, touch wood, not raining, so we should be ok. I've found myself trapped underneath the car finishing work on the handbrake cables and heat shield more than once when its started raining and I've just had to stay under there and get the job finished! :lol: In fact that happened to me just the other day when I was refitting the heat shield correctly, only my feet sticking out the side got wet. :lol:
If the length is about right you might just be able to slide on the repair piece and clamp it up - which will avoid the need to remove the CAT - it will need to come off for sure to weld it, as we'll need to grind off the old weld bead and then put a ring all the way around. Should be able to weld the other part onto the silencer as well no problems. getting the Cat off can't be worse than an HDi....can it???? I've got a good selection of wobble bars and deep sockets to help. Even if the repair piece is not the right diameter, the angle grinder will make short work of putting a slot in it to shrink or enlarge it as required.
Ok that sounds reassuring. I hate tackling a job of unknown requirements without being well prepared but it sounds like we would be well prepared for most eventualities. As I said I ordered two sets of clamps just in case some experimentation is required and we need to try plan B. My main worry is that the sleeve may not be able to slide fully over the cat tail at all, (only push onto the end) as the picture shows a reduced diameter between the main part of the sleeve and the chalice/cup...so we may not be able to mimmic the original fitting but have to devise something slightly different.
You can bring your Lexia and stick it on the C4 Picasso - I'm interested to know if the evaporator temperature sensor is working....!
Will do Richard, I was planning to bring it anyway just in case you might have anything that needed a Lexia session. :wink:

If its anything like the Xantia Climate ECU there is a lot of information available, including a half dozen different temperature sensor readings, its quite interesting to see exactly how it works and responds to the various controls and sensor inputs after speculating for years about some of the finer details of its operation.

What seems to be wrong with the climate control ?
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by RichardW »

The C4 only has 'manual' heating (it is still no doubt ECU controlled, but not climate IYSWIM!) and it has a tendency to freeze the evaporator on long runs. It may be a bit low on gas, but service.citroen shows an evaporator temp sensor - so I would expect this to cut the AC out when the evap temp reached near freezing - but clearly it doesn't!

I'd also be interested to know what the DPF pressure drop is (and state of Eolys if it knows) - it goes OK and the DPF is working fine, but it's not that great on fuel. But maybe that is just lead boots :P

BTW
CitroJim wrote:Most engineers hate exhaust work. I do certainly.
Me too... you can read about the tribulations I had with the HDi exahust Here Still holding 2.5 years / 40k later though =D>
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

Yes, any aircon system will have a temperature sensor on the evaporator that cuts out the compressor when the evaporator gets near freezing then cycle it to maintain that temperature. On mine it seems to stabilise on about 4 degrees - it gets down to 4 from ambient in about 30 seconds and holds it there. The aircon works really well on this car :)

Will be interesting to see if it can read the state of the dpf and eolys, on the C5 there is about 3 times as much information from various ECUs as the Xantia, we could have spent hours yesterday on homers C5...

By the way the exhaust fittings shipped this morning, estimated arrival 25th -30th. Fingered crossed they come in time!
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

Richard,

Looks like the fittings have arrived, (waiting at the post office) PM sent about Saturday :)
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote:Richard,

Looks like the fittings have arrived, (waiting at the post office) PM sent about Saturday :)
Fantastic :-D I await to hear good news Simon!
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

I'd just like to offer a hearty thanks to RichardW for going out of his way to help me with my exhaust on a beautiful and sunny but very cold day. :) =D> It was great to meet another FCF regular to put a face to the name. :)

In the end we decided not to weld on the fittings that I'd obtained from ebay, instead we removed what was left of the rusted outer sleeve, put some slots in the pipe from the middle silencer (which was still fully intact) with a grinder and clamped it up tight with a conventional clamp and a bit of sealant - job done!

It looks very secure, with sufficient overlap and a snug fit between the two pipe diameters and no modifications have been done to the cat tail so it still has the potential to be redone a different way in the future if necessary. No sign of any leak after getting home, time will tell how well the sealant lasts but I think it will be fine.

One minor unexpected drama was discovering coolant leaking all over the ground when I first arrived and put the car up on ramps. :roll: The "leak" appeared to be from the expansion bottle but with no obvious source of the leak. I later realised the problem - I'd (stupidly) topped the coolant up to the brim the previous night when the temperature was close to zero and the engine was near cold, so on the 20 mile trip to Richards it had obviously heated up and expanded to the point where it was forced to vent excess coolant through the overflow valve. #-o

The level only went down about an inch in the expansion bottle and there was no sign of a leak later on, nor after getting back home again. Live and learn... :oops: The minimum and maximum marks described in the owners manual seem to be missing - we both looked and couldn't find them. Should I top it up to just above the pipe visible in the bottle when cold ? That seems to be where it settled after expelling the excess.

Regarding the groaning noise, we did go for a test drive after doing the exhaust, there was a noticeable improvement in the engine running with the exhaust fixed but nothing major. The bad news is I think Richard agrees that the noise is coming from the vicinity the gearbox...so I think an oil change is on the cards ASAP.

Jim - Tonight while searching for information on Esso LT71141 I happened across the following article which I think you will agree is VERY interesting and rather ominously similar, despite being a different gearbox in a porche: (same oil though)

"i had this groaning sound from my transmission that seemed to only manifest itself in 3rd gear at around 1700rpm-1900rpm or so in WOT"

http://www.planet-9.com/reviews/service ... flush.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sound familiar ? Interesting that he was told by dealers that its "normal" yet changing the oil and filter cured it... :roll: I assume the HP20 doesn't have a cover that is removable in place on the car to access the filter like that Porche gearbox ? Shame if it doesn't, I'll have to hope that a change or two of oil will do the trick...

Any suggestions on where best to order approx. 4 litres from ?

Thanks again Richard, any time you want to use the Lexia or could do with an extra pair of hands just let me know. :)
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by RichardW »

Happy to help Simon - was nice to have a run in a V6, not done that before! My lad Dillon (nearly 4) obviously thought it was smooth as he went to sleep within about 10 minutes! Simon's car looks very smart compared to mine, which is really staring to look like the sad workhorse it is.... :(

I can see why you are having trouble describing that noise - but it's definitely there, and from the passenger seat feels directly in front, and you can feel it vibrating through the floor :roll: sounds rather like the diff making a bid for freedom, although I'm sure it isn't - and the 'box deffo doesn't appear to be doing what it should at times.
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CitroJim
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent stuff Simon, delighted the kit worked to make a good exhaust repair. That saved a good cat and a fortune at the same time :-D

On the coolant level, I always maintain mine so that when cold the coolant is just lapping at the edge of the round tube you can see in the tank. That I'd say was about 2/3rds full...

That's an interesting article on the gearbox indeed. It'll be a good idea to swap the oil as soon as you can but sadly, on the HP20 the filter is inaccessible unless you strip the gearbox. There is no other access and I've looked very carefully to see if there is but sadly it's an engine out job and a gearbox strip. If you go that far you'd be well advised to drop the torque converter off at Mackie's for a rebuild as well.

When you drain you'll get about 4.5 litres out if you really try. I find it best to raise the front high on stands and let the rear drop as low as possible and then the drain plug is at the lowest point. I'd be tempted to do two changes in relatively quick succession.

Best place to get LT71141 easily is from a Citroen dealer. It's available under part no. 9736.22. Else that, if you plan on more than one change then go for 20 litres of the stuff from one of the wholesalers.
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:Excellent stuff Simon, delighted the kit worked to make a good exhaust repair. That saved a good cat and a fortune at the same time :-D
Well the only thing we actually used from the kit was one of the conventional u-bolt clamps. :lol: I'll keep the rest of the kit in case I have any further problems. I did check the flare of the fittings to see if they match the flare of the end of the silencer - which it does seem to, and the inner diameter is a perfect snug fit for the end of the cat tail, however because there is a reduced diameter section between the end and the flare its impossible to slide it over the cat tail completely to reach the original weld line, hence going for a different approach which also saved trying to remove the cat from the car!
On the coolant level, I always maintain mine so that when cold the coolant is just lapping at the edge of the round tube you can see in the tank. That I'd say was about 2/3rds full...
Ok, must remember that. I plead temporary insanity, I should know better than to fill up the expansion bottle to the brim when cold! #-o It certainly gave me a scare when I arrived with coolant leaking all over the ground. :? (I bet Richard wasn't too chuffed either :lol: )
That's an interesting article on the gearbox indeed. It'll be a good idea to swap the oil as soon as you can but sadly, on the HP20 the filter is inaccessible unless you strip the gearbox. There is no other access and I've looked very carefully to see if there is but sadly it's an engine out job and a gearbox strip. If you go that far you'd be well advised to drop the torque converter off at Mackie's for a rebuild as well.
I managed to contact Stempy by PM last night to see what his recollections of his gearbox problem cure was, he had this to say: (I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here)
Stempy wrote: As I remember the problem I had was caused by low oil level caused by a leak from the oil return banjo union on the side of the gearbox. After I fixed the leak and replaced the oil the problem did not return and the gearbox was fine up to the 120 odd thousand miles it had done when I parted with it.
That's both very encouraging and also a bit worrying. Encouraging that when he fixed the problem it went from 56k miles to 120k miles with no further problems. Worrying that he had problems as early as 56k, and that he found a leak that needed fixing since low oil is so deadly to an autobox.

Can you describe where this return banjo is and what it looks like so I can check it for leaks ? :? I hope its not low on oil, I really should have checked it weeks ago but I wasn't sure whether I was chasing an engine problem or gearbox or both at the time...

Another piece of information I've read on the net (taken with a grain of salt) is that if the car has done a high mileage without any changes that there is actually a significant risk of causing problems doing the 1st change - the new detergent in the fresh oil can loosen up deposited sludge allowing it to circulate in the oil (much like doing a hydraflush) and get into places where it will cause trouble...so their advice was actually to not change the oil in a sealed for life box if it has already done more than 100,000 miles without a change... :?

I wonder if whats happened is the box has had no oil changes until lexi did one last year at 98,000, and in the 2000 odd miles since the sludge has detached and started circulating and causing problems...the oil may have looked relatively clean at the time he changed it if the gunk was still caked onto the surfaces...if this is what has happened the only way forward is to do another change ASAP to see if any sludge is removed and do a second change in a few hundred miles.
When you drain you'll get about 4.5 litres out if you really try. I find it best to raise the front high on stands and let the rear drop as low as possible and then the drain plug is at the lowest point. I'd be tempted to do two changes in relatively quick succession.
Yep that's how I did my HP14 - front of the car up on ramps, drain the oil, put the plug back in, roll the car back down onto the ground without starting it, then top it up. So you think I should get a minimum of 5-6 litres ?
Best place to get LT71141 easily is from a Citroen dealer. It's available under part no. 9736.22. Else that, if you plan on more than one change then go for 20 litres of the stuff from one of the wholesalers.
I think I'll do that. A 20 litre drum (which would allow 3-4 changes I guess) is rather pricey when I don't know if it will cure the problem, and could take a bit of time and trouble to source. I have a Citroen dealer a mile down the road that I've got parts from a few times now, so I think I'll just phone them on monday and see if they can get me 5-6 litres ASAP.
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by CitroJim »

Mandrake wrote: Can you describe where this return banjo is and what it looks like so I can check it for leaks ? :? I hope its not low on oil, I really should have checked it weeks ago but I wasn't sure whether I was chasing an engine problem or gearbox or both at the time...
One picture is worth a thousand words Simon,

Here's a typical leaky one:

Image

The leaks are caused by corrosion to the aluminium washers each side of the banjo bolt. A bad leak here can drain the 'box in 150 miles as the pipe is the main oil feed from the cooler...

If you find you do have a leak there, let me know as I have quite a stock of washers...
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

Thanks Jim,

That's very helpful. I won't be able to check it today as its been p***ing down, but will check it as soon as I can. Will also check the oil level as soon as I can in case it is low, and keep the driving to a minimum until I have.
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by CitroJim »

Simon, a source of LT71141: Opie Oils
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

CitroJim wrote:Simon, a source of LT71141: Opie Oils
Jim you're a star :-D Do you think I need 6 litres or will 5 be enough for one change with a bit left over ? (I'm watching the ££ until I'm paid :lol: )