Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm running)

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stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Stempy wrote:Congratulations on reaching the magic 100 pages.

I think when you read the numerous horror stories of dodgy supermarket fuel with high silicon content etc it goes to show that they probably do as they do with all their other products and drive the buy price down and source their fuel from somewhere with perhaps less quality control as per the horse meat issue, so who knows what it been diluted or contaminated with?

I have a Shell garage very close by and always go there when possible. If you get one of the loyalty cards you can soon build up a stash of fuel vouchers to help off set the extra cost, plus you will get better mpg anyway and benefit from keeping your engine in good shape.

Supermarket fuel is cheap and convenient for those who just see their cars as a form of transport. Those that cherish their vehicles should know better.
100 pages to draw just a handful of simple conclusions. That sounds familiar... :rofl2:

I think you're right about supermarket fuel Stempy, except that round these parts nowadays it's usually as expensive as regular stuff. I guess people are willing to pay it, and it's a convenience/laziness thing. I guess points on a Clubcard/Nectar card all pulls people in too.

The old adages about two garages close together being cheaper no longer holds either. I have a Shell garage as close as the local Pug dealer which seems to usually be around average price (based on my varied travels). There's a Jet garage on the way to my southbound M1 junction that's often a penny cheaper (but with no points card). If I head in the direction of Meadowhall to take the M1 north I pass a Shell and BP less than two miles from home, virtually opposite each other, and which are almost always 2p dearer than my closer Shell.

A trip to see my young lady who lives in the sticks north of Harrogate sees me pass through that considerably more affluent town just to top up on less expensive petrol - it's often 2p a litre cheaper at their Shell (and the nearby Esso) than my local one - though the Texaco opposite the Shell is often dearer. It's crazy. Absolutely crazy... #-o

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:I have a Shell station 2 miles away from me. Since the problem with Tesco fuel, I have only ever used Shell in my personal car (and whatever I am allowed to use in the company van).
Some years ago whist doing the same job I'm doing now (40,000 miles a year - same bosses but different company - long story), we were issued with Texaco fuel cards. At the time I had a 405 1.9TD and I'd hardly ever had cause to use Texaco fuel before. Very quickly I was converted - the car loved the stuff. Texaco branches round here started getting thin on the ground as some closed and others became BP's and so on, so I wasn't too sorry to see the card go, but I was always impressed with the fuel. It's just a shame it's always so much dearer than the other brands. I drop £20 of it in every so often when I'm at a mate's as he has a Texaco at the end of the street - there's no doubt this car runs better on it, but it's unlikely to become a regular thing :)
Last edited by stevieb on 15 Feb 2014, 23:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

I'd still be tempted to get hold of some spare injectors - like these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Peugeot-406-3 ... 3389faef68 . If you take the car off the road you only need the specialist to find one of your injectors beyond repair or there be some other problem, and you'll be kicking yourself for not having spares. If you send off six spares and there's a duff one, then you can sacrifice your car for a week whilst one (or maybe two, just in case) of your originals is sent for treatment to make up the six. The other argument is if you get a cheap set that are still in their rails (as I did) then you can happily flush out the used rails whilst the injectors are away being treated, and assuming they all come back without any problems re-insert them into their original rails and just swap the complete sets over in your own time - that way the job is a lot less messy and time consuming. The added bonus is the option of re-selling your unwanted injectors on Ebay to reap some of the cost back.
Is that definitely the rail for the ES9J4 from a 406 D8 or could it be from an ES9J4S in a D9 ? I can't seem to match the part numbers they quote against those in service.citroen.com. If its the correct engine I'm strongly tempted to snap them up for that price. :shock:

I would just swap over the whole rail including injectors and fuel pressure regulator and see how it drives - if it fixes the problem job done, if there is still a problem or the problem changes I could send my original injectors away to be cleaned as originally planned, but at leisure without taking the car off the road.

I'll reply to your other comments tomorrow. :)

Hell Razor5543
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Hell Razor5543 »

My company has issued me with a FastFuel card (which is Texaco). Ironically some Texaco stations won't accept it, as it takes too long for payment to come through! Murco and Morrisons do accept it.

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:Is that definitely the rail for the ES9J4 from a 406 D8 or could it be from an ES9J4S in a D9 ? I can't seem to match the part numbers they quote against those in service.citroen.com. If its the correct engine I'm strongly tempted to snap them up for that price. :shock:

I would just swap over the whole rail including injectors and fuel pressure regulator and see how it drives - if it fixes the problem job done, if there is still a problem or the problem changes I could send my original injectors away to be cleaned as originally planned, but at leisure without taking the car off the road.

I'll reply to your other comments tomorrow. :)
ES9J4 injectors are here - http://www.mrv6.co.uk/peugeotpartscatal ... 14N70A.HTM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

These are the injectors for the ES9J4S:

Image

As you can tell, they're different. The interesting thing in that Ebay link is the plenum chamber is still attached - strangely, this might prove helpful. If you buy the set of six gaskets required for the six valve ports then you won't even have to disturb any fuel, other than at the connectors. And while the plenum chamber is off you could have a look at the elusive knock sensor and tell us all what it looks like... Hint hint... :rofl2:

EDIT - I found another set of injectors still in their rails - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PEUGEOT-406-9 ... 5aea3745dc
Last edited by stevieb on 15 Feb 2014, 23:46, edited 2 times in total.

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Hell Razor5543 wrote:My company has issued me with a FastFuel card (which is Texaco). Ironically some Texaco stations won't accept it, as it takes too long for payment to come through! Murco and Morrisons do accept it.
Like I say - crazy. Some countries would be rioting in the street over such a nonsensical state of affairs. We just shrug our shoulders and accept it... :roll:

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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote: They're different. The interesting thing in that Ebay link is the plenum chamber is still attached - strangely, this might prove helpful. If you buy the set of six gaskets required for the six valve ports then you won't even have to disturb any fuel, other than at the connectors. And while the plenum chamber is off you could have a look at the elusive knock sensor and tell us all what it looks like... Hint hint... :rofl2:
Thanks for confirming they're different - now I've seen the ES9J4S rails they're clearly a totally different design and thus I can tell from the photo that its the right one.

I've just snapped those rails up so they're mine now. :twisted:

I just realised I can do an injector balance test (with my pulser/exciter tool) and also test the fuel pressure regulator (as well as checking for general leaks) without fitting the rail to the car - all I need to do is attach it to the snap on fuel connectors on the left hand end of the rails and put it over a catchment tray. Then I can have a fair idea of whether there are any iffy injectors or a balance problem before fitting them to the car.

I also have a spare fuel pump so I could in theory test it completely off the car with the fuel pump sitting in a bowl of fuel and piped straight to the rail with a couple of short lengths of fuel hose. :lol:

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:Thanks for confirming they're different - now I've seen the ES9J4S rails they're clearly a totally different design and thus I can tell from the photo that its the right one.

I've just snapped those rails up so they're mine now. :twisted:

I just realised I can do an injector balance test (with my pulser/exciter tool) and also test the fuel pressure regulator (as well as checking for general leaks) without fitting the rail to the car - all I need to do is attach it to the snap on fuel connectors on the left hand end of the rails and put it over a catchment tray. Then I can have a fair idea of whether there are any iffy injectors before fitting.

I also have a spare fuel pump so I could in theory test it completely off the car with the fuel pump sitting in a bowl of fuel and piped straight to the rail with a couple of short lengths of fuel hose. :lol:
Result =D>

Well I'll report back on my spark plug improvements in the week, and if you report back on the state of these injectors and then any improvements after swapping them, maybe we'll start to find answers to niggly ES9J4 problems once and for all :)

I'll be interested to find out how the ultrasonic cleaning goes too, if you need to go that far. I have plans on changing the car before the summer so it may not affect me, but considering my plans for new cars have often gone wonky in the past I may still be using this one in two years time with 200k on the clock and in desperate need of a way of eeking out the last bit of life...

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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote: That all makes sense. I've been to the local Pug stealer (less than two minutes walk from home) and ordered a couple more inlet manifold gaskets. They due in on Wednesday, by which time I plan on having a set of six nice new plugs to install. I quite like these Denso ones, and might go for some of their newer equivalents.

These look an interesting alternative to the traditional dual electrode approach - http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Peuge ... 356&000301" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - and a good price too.
I can't really tell from the page you linked what it is you're referring to with those plugs - do you mean the fact that it has a dimple on the earth leg as well as the centre electrode ? I'm not sure that I see how that gives equivalent life to a dual electrode plug ? Unless the tips are special material.

Another reason I like the dual electrode design (or the multi-electrode types that have 3 or more spikes coming in from the sides to the centre) is that the spark gap faces directly towards the cylinder leaving the spark more exposed, compared to a single earth electrode which tends to shield the spark from the main part of the cylinder. I've always felt that would lead to better ignition of the mixture, although I don't have any real proof of that. :)

Whichever plug you go for make sure its the right heat range - I've noticed that many of the automated spark plug lookup based on engine type pages on websites return the wrong heat range (one range colder) than specified by PSA for this engine. (Should be a Bosch heat range 8, a lot specify 7) I have seen only one old Citroen document on the engine that lists FR7KDC but all the later ones specify FR8KDC - perhaps PSA revised the spark plug spec to a slightly hotter plug early on in the life of the engine due to fouling problems in cold weather/short runs ?

I certainly had terrible fouling problems with the colder plugs in mine (see the pics - both types of plugs had done 1000 miles of the same type of driving) so I will be sticking to the correct heat range from now on. If you're buying a different brand plug you'll need to use a lookup table to convert the heat ranges into equivalent numbers. (NGK uses a backwards numbering for example)

Another factor is resister vs non-resistor. Original spec (for both Bosch and Elysium plugs) is a resistor type, the FR7DC+ I had trouble with are non-resistor while the FR8KDC are resistor types - maybe significant as well.
I think the rear injectors are working in the most inclement part of the engine - that inlet manifold must hold an awful lot of extra heat in there. You could think that the front ones would be prone to it too, but I can't help but think those "scoops" in the plastic engine cover help the airflow around the front ones a bit. The rear ones don't have any airflow. I also noticed on mine that the plugs for the rear injectors had full rubber boots unlike the fronts which are regular, exposed, plugs. These rubber boots have scorch-marks on them and look like they'll be turning brittle very soon.
From what I've read varnish forms on the pintle valves when the fuel sitting statically in the injector bakes in the heat after the car is turned off. So it would make sense that rear injectors would be more likely to stick, although again that's only supposition.
As for getting the injectors out of the rails, it's not too difficult.
To completely remove both rails from the car, do you have to disconnect the two rails from each other, or can they be lifted out together ? Apart from the breather hose you broke (must remember to make sure I have heat shrink on hand!) does anything else foul it or get in the way ?
The comment on cheap 95 octane fuel is interesting. Do you mean you used supermarket fuel, or just "cheap" when in context with high octane fuel? I ask because my previous 406 was the lovely 8-valve 2.0 litre petrol turbo (my favourite Peugeot engine, despite similar sensor issues - it was fab :lol: ), and it HATED supermarket fuel with a passion. I only used it twice out of necessity (I'd learnt the difference between supermarket and local Shell garage fuel many moons ago when I anally measured the tank-to-tank mpg of my first car - a 1.3 309). One occasion sticks in my mind when I put a tankful of Sainsbury's high octane stuff in at Swadlincote in Derbyshire. My drive home from there was 20% of mixed 30mph villages and 60mph country roads, followed by 80% of 70mph motorway spec road, and you could physically feel the car getting weaker and weaker. I seriously started to wonder where my RAC card was, it got so bad. I had the full-on "rubber throttle". The car got me home with a bigger drop in fuel than I was used to, and carried on running like cack for a few days until I filled up at the Shell near home. Instantly, with regular Shell fuel, it returned to normal. I don't know what it is about supermarket fuel, but it just isn't as good as the stuff from mainstream forecourts. And I think if it's causing these power and economy issues then what other problems might it be causing? I have little doubt my stuck injector is related to my car being two and a half years old before it left the forecourt - sitting there with a litre of cheap petrol going stale in its tank - and I wonder if the use of this cheaper petrol on a regular basis can have a similar effect over time. In my case, if the previous owner added to an existing problem with supermarket 95RON fuel, it's hardly surprising they've all finally come home to roost...
Yes I'm embarrassed to admit but I was running it on 95 RON Asda fuel for the first 6 months I had it. :oops: My two excuses are one that we were quite hard up at the time, and the other is that supermarkets don't sell fuel in New Zealand so I have no prior experience of buying supermarket fuel. :lol: (This is the first car I've owned in the UK)

So I guess I just didn't realise what poor quality it is. I haven't used any supermarket fuel in the car for over a year though, its been all either BP (both standard and Ultimate) or more recently it has only had Shell V-Power except for one spell when the local Shell were out of V-Power for a week (??!) when I used BP Ultimate again.

In hindsight whilst the car ran perfectly on the Asda fuel while I was using it, it could have been clogging the injectors, also only a month before the performance problems started I had done a big 800 mile trip around the top of Scotland and had been forced to buy fuel from all kinds of small out of the way petrol stations whose names I've never heard of before.. again, the car ran beautifully on that trip but who knows what dirt and gunk could have got into the tank only to be released when it ran low.

It was literally about 6-8 weeks after that trip that everything started to go down the drain...

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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

stevieb wrote: 100 pages to draw just a handful of simple conclusions. That sounds familiar... :rofl2:
To be fair this thread started off with a broken exhaust, then drifted into major gearbox problems before finally wandering into the engine performance problems. The engine performance bit was probably only 60 pages. :rofl2:

I should have kept them to separate threads but all three problems occurred at the same time (!) and for a long long time I could not separate out which performance symptoms were gearbox related and which were engine related as there is a symbiotic relationship between the two - not just mechanically, but they pass data back and forth between the ECU's too...

Troubleshooting a manual would have been oh so much easier! :wink: In fact if this gearbox ever fails on me and I decide to salvage the car, I'm seriously considering doing a manual conversion instead of getting the gearbox rebuilt or replaced...might as well get something good out of something breaking! (V6 manual Xantia's in the UK can be counted on one hand as they were never released in RHD form so it would make it a rather unique and even more fun to drive car)

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:Another reason I like the dual electrode design (or the multi-electrode types that have 3 or more spikes coming in from the sides to the centre) is that the spark gap faces directly towards the cylinder leaving the spark more exposed, compared to a single earth electrode which tends to shield the spark from the main part of the cylinder. I've always felt that would lead to better ignition of the mixture, although I don't have any real proof of that. :)
I read online yesterday about something done in sportscar circles where they ensure the earth electrode "arm" is immediately opposite the inlet valve(s) to ensure the fuel/air mix sees the full spark - I forget the proper term now. Assuming PSA and the plug manufacturers haven't designed things to do just that in an ES9J4, then surely increasing the number of earth electrodes increases the risk of one of the arms being in the way. I know you're increasing the chance of a good spark by having more electrodes, but you're surely introducing more obtsacles too. And if it only ever sparks to one of those electrodes at a time, then sometimes you're getting a good one, and when that electrode wears and the other(s) come into play you'll be getting a bad one - I guess the V6 means more cylinders to mask the effect, but I'm still unsure. I suppose having two inlet valves negates it a little with a dual electrode plug, but I do know the V6 owners on the Coupé Club cursed the four-electrode plugs for causing all sorts of problems, presumably because of the extra electrodes.

I'll let you know what I go for when I've got them in my hand - I'm still undecided. Those Denso plugs I linked to are here - http://www.densott.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - I quite like the twin-tip idea as a potential way to increase spark reliability - hopefully it'll bypass issues caused by earth electrode erosion. Whether this results in longer life I doubt very much, but this should be my last plug swap. The Iridium ones I have in now were fab when I first installed them, but they're a lot more expensive so these might be a cheap "novelty" alternative.
Mandrake wrote:To completely remove both rails from the car, do you have to disconnect the two rails from each other, or can they be lifted out together ? Apart from the breather hose you broke (must remember to make sure I have heat shrink on hand!) does anything else foul it or get in the way ?
No, the rails can be left attached to each other. The only other fiddly bit I'd forgotten to mention is the vacuum hose from the pressure regulator to the inlet manifold - mine disconnects easily at the manifold end but wouldn't disconnect at the regulator end, so I had to thread it out instead. There's a little notch in the end of the plenum chamber for the hose to pass through which you have to remember to do when you reassemble it. The flywheel end is the fiddliest - I removed my air filter box to give me a bit more elbow/manipulation room and it worked fine :-)
Mandrake wrote:Yes I'm embarrassed to admit but I was running it on 95 RON Asda fuel for the first 6 months I had it. :oops: My two excuses are one that we were quite hard up at the time, and the other is that supermarkets don't sell fuel in New Zealand so I have no prior experience of buying supermarket fuel. :lol: (This is the first car I've owned in the UK)

So I guess I just didn't realise what poor quality it is. I haven't used any supermarket fuel in the car for over a year though, its been all either BP (both standard and Ultimate) or more recently it has only had Shell V-Power except for one spell when the local Shell were out of V-Power for a week (??!) when I used BP Ultimate again.

In hindsight whilst the car ran perfectly on the Asda fuel while I was using it, it could have been clogging the injectors, also only a month before the performance problems started I had done a big 800 mile trip around the top of Scotland and had been forced to buy fuel from all kinds of small out of the way petrol stations whose names I've never heard of before.. again, the car ran beautifully on that trip but who knows what dirt and gunk could have got into the tank only to be released when it ran low.

It was literally about 6-8 weeks after that trip that everything started to go down the drain...
This is one of those things that you've possibly found out the hard way.

I've told everybody I know, 'til I'm blue in the face, not to use supermarket fuel unless they want to be paying more per mile AND building up future engine trouble. Nobody listens because convenience/laziness/cost-at-the-pump always wins, so now when a mate calls and says "my cars running rough, will you come and have a look?" I ask them whether they've been using supermarket fuel - if they say yes I tell them to go see a garage. Harsh, but fair. Unsurprisingly, nobody comes and asks any more.. :roll:

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

A quote from a post I made on the Coupé Club back on 15th May 2008:

"Thought I'd report back on the results of a few weeks of Denso Iridium usage.

Power gains - negligible. Though I had a new exhaust a few weeks before that gave me MAHOOSIVE gains, so I'm still getting used to the extra oomph.

Starting - it starts a lot quicker and easier, especially when warm. The start is now instant, rather than delayed by half a second. Whether this is down to the type of plugs or just the fact they're new is anybody's guess.

I now need some new leads, as I found the old ones were a bit crappy. Another job and more expense
."

I still haven't done the leads... :oops:

And whilst I'm on, here's a comparison pic of two inlet manifold gaskets - guess which one is new:

Image

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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

Don't worry, I've sworn off supermarket fuel for over a year now, lesson learned. I can't be sure that it caused the problem but it could have been a contributing factor, as well as a tendency for me to run the tank right down to the warning light and beyond towards the end of each month as the money wasn't there to fill it up. In the last year I've rarely run it down to the warning light as we're a bit better off now financially. A combination of poor quality fuel and running the tank low all the time could have contributed to clogging the input mesh of some injectors.

I've been thinking back a bit more this morning about past symptoms and one particular time when I was absolutely sure that I'd fixed it 100% - the time when I taped up the damaged ignition wire before visiting David Hallworth, (40 miles each way) and the engine ran like it had just rolled off the factory floor that day and for two weeks afterwards with not a single glitch.

It begins with this post in my thread on 13th Jan 2013: (yes, so long ago!)

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 97#p350897" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I described what I had done a few days later in this post:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... 69#p350969" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I didn't describe (at least in that post) is that as well as taping up the ignition wire I had tested the fuel pressure multiple times in a row with my new fuel pressure gauge (which had only arrived a couple of days before) and each time I had hit the dump valve on the gauge to quickly (instantly) dump the pressure in the rail through the gauges overflow hose.

When I visited David that day I discussed that with him and speculated that as well as fixing the insulation fault with the wire, (which was definitely causing a massive misfire) I wondered whether dumping the fuel pressure rapidly through the schraeder valve might have dislodged some dirt from the pressure regulator diaphragm due to the reverse flow that the dump would cause.

Some time later (weeks, months I can't remember) when the performance was poor again I remember doing some fuel pressure tests again including a balance test and every time I did fuel pressure tests I was using the dump valve on the gauge to quickly dump the pressure in the rail (with the pump off) between tests or just before disconnecting the gauge.

And I remember every time I did these fuel pressure tests the car ran much better for a day or two. I may have noted this somewhere in this thread but if I did I can't find it now. I'm sure I remember discussing it with at least one person face to face or by PM.

In hindsight could it be that pressurising then dumping the fuel rail pressure instantly from the schrader valve multiple times in a row could be causing enough abrupt reverse flow through the injector screens to dislodge some dirt/grit from one of the screens, like trying to unblock a drain with a plunger ?

The problem is to attach to the schrader valve the air filter box has to be removed and the cruise control diaphragm unbolted and moved aside which disturbs a number of wires including the knock sensor cable, so I always attributed this change in performance to disturbing something else, even though as far as I remember every time I tried the fuel pressure gauge dumps there was a temporary performance improvement.

Could a clue have been there in plain sight more than a year ago ? #-o

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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by Mandrake »

Given the above talk about blocked injector meshes, I think what I'll do with this injector rail when it arrives and before fitting it, is carefully remove each injector from the rail, check the o-rings are in good condition and aren't split like some of the ones you discovered, check the input mesh on each injector and clean it as well as I can with spray carb cleaner, and if necessary blow through it in the reverse direction while energised to help clear away any muck. I'll also flush the inside of the rail itself with carb cleaner.

Once that's done and the injectors are refitted I'll see if I can manage to hook it up to my spare fuel pump and do both a pressure test and an injector balance test with my pressure gauge and timer tool. Should be quite easy to do on the bench, although I will need to buy a container of fuel to use with it as I don't have a spare petrol container.

Assuming there are no leaks, fuel pressure regulates properly and the balance test comes out ok then I'll fit the whole rail to the car and see how it goes. If there is a significant imbalance even after cleaning then I'll need to send them to be professionally cleaned and tested - no point fitting it to the car if I know it will introduce a balance problem! :roll:

stevieb
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Re: Xantia V6 broken exhaust (update: and rough low rpm runn

Post by stevieb »

Mandrake wrote:Could a clue have been there in plain sight more than a year ago ? #-o
Undoubtedly... :wink:

My comment about the 100 pages to come up with a small number of conclusions is pertinent at this point. I did exactly the same with the invisible caravan issue last year - as owners we hit upon a problem, apply a certain amount of logic to it, and decide that we've found the solution. Off we toddle to buy a new sensor or replace something, and for a short while it improves things and we think the problem is solved, only to find that things begin to return to their unhealthy state again.

Then we do it again. And again.

I'm convinced that a lot of the time the problem is like you say, in plain sight, but there are so many other factors and knock-on effects involved that lead us away from that simple problem, we tend to be drawn to those instead. I noticed on the Coupé Club for a while the answer to every engine issue was to replace the CTS, simply because a handful of owners had done just that and had success. What they don't tell you is that some of those who had "success" come back to the site a month later with a repeat of the same symptoms asking for more advice and having to try something else. Eventually you'll get the right fix, but it's more down to luck than judgement whether it happens sooner or later, and it seems unless there's a proper process of diagnosis then all you end up doing is exactly what the dealers would have you do - keep replacing things until the problem is fixed.

And advice over the t'interweb is often completely mis-leading, as I've found with the tappet/injector noise, simply because it's so difficult to convey the problem through this medium. One coupé owner had his tappets replaced to get rid of the tappet noise that was driving him mad - two garages and numerous members of the club told him it was 99.9% definitely tappet noise. After the work the noise was still there, so either the garage didn't do the work, did it wrong, or it wasn't tappets anyway - I suspect it was the latter (I was the only one to express caution about spending so much getting tappets done - needless to say my voice was lost in the wilderness of people helping to spend somebody else's money #-o ).

It's a sad thing to say too - and this is especially so on the Coupé Club - but the age of the cars now means not only are they now developing more problems, but a lot of the earlier owners who had those problems and learned from them have moved-on to other cars, and the cars still on the road are being maintained within smaller budgets and often by people with less history of PSA vehicles. Advice from these people, based on their experiences of other makes can also be very mis-leading. An owner posted a question a few weeks ago asking for help with the PCV valve location. As nobody had heard of a PCV valve all sorts of speculation began - then the original poster returned and pointed out it was the Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve - and still the speculation continued, despite there being no such thing on the parts diagrams and people like me pointing out that the engine didn't have one - just an open breather. The OP had come across it on a Honda and had thought the ES9J4 might have one and it might be the cause of her friends ES9J4 engine problems... :?

Anyway, enough ranting from me. Today's update is a simple one - cold start outbound journey = smooth, quiet, with good mpg. Return warm-start journey = slightly rougher, louder, and slightly worse mpg. I'm definitely suspecting plugs, so I'll get them changed asap and report back on my findings. I may do the ICV reset before tomorrow morning's 150-ish mile round trip and see if it helps.