An XM next?

[Deanxm]

Well all I said was watch for this weakness as not every one of the 2,3,4,5th etc owner is going to give a monkey's
about the gearbox oil even if it's something you can/will devote some OCD time too sure. I've seen so many dead
one's in my time on ebay and witnessed x2 pal's CFSH cars give up as well as a v6 auto i bought and didn't get a week
out of. Don't come running to me when it packs up that's all I'm saying - oh that's right, it'll only have reverse gear
that works...

these can and will give up and the car isn't thrown away with the manual box alternative where, heaven forbid, the
clutch may eventually wear out and set you back a few 100quid as opposed to £1k's with a failed auto.

So a couple of hours to swap out a valve block is somehow catastrofic compared to a few hours to swap out a clutch? i know which one is easier to do thats for sure, you will see lots of dead auto's, they probably outnumber manuals 10-1. out of all the citroens ive had 1 has been an auto and now at 20 years old has had a new pressure regulator spring to stop a snatchy R engagement, it wasnt broke, just annoying, 4 have been manuals and ive junked one of them for jumping out of gear and done 2 clutches so from my experience manuals are more hassle, its just luck of the draw nothing more, there were no well known faults of defects in the 4HP18 design.

D

[andmcit]

Quite right Paul yet my emphasis still stands - an Xm worth somewhere in the ballpark of 6-700 quid
up to 2-3k for a superb example will likely be thrown away when the autobox packs in whereas a guy
like you around the corner can sort a clutch out for 2-300 quid. Problem with old Xm/Xants now is the
weak maintenance of the numerous previous owners as you say and this in my experience is quite
apparent with the Xm - you guys prepared to spend your life changing the gearbox oil on top of all
the usual stuff the manual box guys need to concern themselves with are welcome to the joys of it all.
I'll be out on the beach walking the dogs...

Dear me - apologies for slighting such a masterpiece of engineering - didn't think it needed pillorying though!

[CitroJim]

Andrew I'm shocked, shocked to the core

[andmcit]

Great stuff - auto's are wonderful and everyone shoukd have one in their Xm.
So who said they fancied buying my dead green V6 auto I have with a spare
working autobox!?

[citroenxm]

ME ANdrew!!! me.... WITH pleasure!

Bring it to me, ill fix it for you, ive got a spare auto box here too...

Id gladly fix the V6 auto, though, I do need to get TWO xantias gone ASAP, an estate and a hatch..

[andmcit]

I really can't be enthused to drag the engine out to end up with a car I probably won't enjoy driving myself
- I know the engine pulls amazingly well but have I mentioned how the stepped bands of the gear changes
drive me demented hmmmm? The damned changes (especially into top) are always at a point above the
prevailing speed limit or the speed everyone of the zombiefied great unwashed insist on trundling around at...

I may've mentioned this before? It's at this point I usually go off on a love'in with the super clever true
masterpiece that is the auto adaptive! lol

[Hotrodelectric]

Much more than the transmission, my concern would be the front strut mounts, their scarcity and expense, and the frightening amount of damage when they do fail. We actually have an XM Estate available for sale here in SoCal, and the strut mounts were the main reason I didn't go for it when I replaced my Mercury Sable wagon a couple of months ago. I had read elsewhere that a central European company was attempting to rebuild them, and having some limited success. Has anyone else heard anything about this?

By the way- that XM Estate is listed at $11,500. Shocking, until you know that it's one of two or three here in the US, is California-legal, and the transmission alone was just rebuilt at a cost of $4000. Take away the cost of the legalization and the trans, and you wind up with with the car for nearly nothing.

[andmcit]

The rebuilt strut tops are OK and some here have had some made up and seem
happy although I'm not sure if they've been used in anger yet or simply put in store
as spares ready for the day...

a rubbish piece of design though. Check out the range of articulation on the tops
when turning the car from lock to lock - it's quite staggering especially when you
realise there's not a lot of rubber holding that kit together off the road with heaven
knows how much psi of hydraulic pressure on a car with 70% frontal weight bias!

[Old-Guy]

Many thanks for all the advice and comments - I knew I'd start a lively debate.

I tend to drive fast but not furiously, what we want is a supremely comfortable and reasonably economical long-distance 5-seat express. I had thought about something like a Caravelle (an Espace Grande isn't affordable) but you can't get away from the fact that like every MPV I've driven it's based on a VAN with all the ride compromises that that implies.

So I'm convinced I should be thinking about an XM 2.1 manual estate, which leads me to ask yet more questions:

1. Were all 2.1 turbo-charged even if the engine designation isn't 2.1TD?
2. Do all XMs have the same Hydractive 2 suspension?
3. What XM specific problems should I look out for?

Finally, there a very tidy, low mileage example in red for private sale in Hartlepool - is this an FCF member? (the seller not the car!)

[andmcit]

1. All 2.1's are turbo'd

2. Late s1's and all S2's yes - earlier s1 cars have the x6 spheres too but not the same set up of electrovalves.
Later s2 cars have another change to the ECU but the bottom line is all Xm's (barring weird
base spec rare carburettor cars) have inherently the same architecture.

3. Rust on the sills and rear arches on the estate. Heater matrix can go but is far easier than Xant with access to
change it easy in the driver's footwell. Strut tops as mentioned. Dip beam is poor so a HiD kit is recommended.
There's a suggestion exhausts are getting fewer and far between to get from the normal sources.

You'd do no better looking at that red estate though...
3. Yes. Citroenmad Chris owns one of the nicest s2 manual estates you could hope to buy!

[Hotrodelectric]

a rubbish piece of design though. Check out the range of articulation on the tops
when turning the car from lock to lock - it's quite staggering especially when you
realise there's not a lot of rubber holding that kit together off the road with heaven
knows how much psi of hydraulic pressure on a car with 70% frontal weight bias!

Oh, lordy yes. I saw that You Tube short focusing on a strut top while the steering was put through motion. That was scary. I cannot for the life of me figure why they had to do the strut mount that way. The only possible guess is Citroen was stuck with making that "hard point" on the chassis design from the 605 work in whatever way. The dsign was done very amateurishly- not something I would expect from two companies with long histories of suspension engineering excellence.

[citroenxm]

The first cars from G to around K have hydractive two but the setup is slightly different and you find they don't work majority of the time and are stuck in hard mode. this can be over come by fitment of soft spheres.. then there was and Ecu change and better setup from K to early M reg and the setup on these age of cars on a 99% time the system always works as it should.. Then on series two cars they switched the setup to the same as xantias where the diodes tend to fail and the mackay ecrofting kit is needed.. Im not 100% certain if early series 2 cars have the earlier setup of changed straight away to this.

series two cars seem to suffer more from rust in many areas but that's not to say s1 cars don't either.. as said Cill are particually weak also check under the rear where the subframe bolts to the chassis... front bumper mounts just below the front wings tend to disintegrate too..

strut top mount supplies are not an issue now with the Lithuania company that do them now.. ive a pair on my sed 2.1 and there were a couple at cxm rally the other week... they work out at a guess around 150 a side exchange (a price estimate not exact)

S1 cars have single spoke steering wheels, s1.5 usually have a twin spoke though owners usually source a single spoke wheel to fit, so s1.5 cars with improved earths and hydractive are from K 1992 to M 1994.. then s2 cars with modified dash and door mirrors and a few other changes From M reg to W 2000....

[Old-Guy]

Sorry, answers to more questions please.

I have got the impression from forum discussions about 2.1 Xantiae, that the 2.1 is a bit of a pig to work on. Is that because it's a tight fit in the Xantia? Is the XM engine bay a bit roomier making the 2.1 a lot easier to work on (and it's the 2.5 that the comparable pig)?

Whose (Lucas/CAV or Bosch) injection system is fitted to the 2.1 in the XM? If both, what are the pros and cons of each?

Would I be right in thinking that prior to '96, PSA diesels don't have ECUs and EGR (like my '95 1.9TD)?

Thanks once again chaps.

[citroenxm]

Same identical Engine, Guy, Same stupid lay out leaning right back.. Pre 1992 without EGR a bit easyer to work on, but all a bit fiddley to get round the back... 2.5 are massive, also have twin balance shafts, and an external water pump fitted over by the gearbox end of the head...

2.1 has lot more space at front once the Xantia 1.9 Type intercooler pipes are aremoved...

H to K reg had Mechanical LUCAS fuel system with plastic mainifold, no EGR, around 1992 then K reg was a change to Alloy inlet wth EGR and Bosch Mechanical Fuel system. Both with NO ECU and better fuel consumption.. 45mpg plus..

Then the Bosch and alloy inlet went to around the same time the Xantia gained the 2.1 engine.. Lucas EPIC and back to a plastic inlet was again fitted. Bosch is the longest lived fuel system. Lucas systems leak on the pump in places, but go well. EPIC is, well EPIC as xantia, not brilliant for a long life...

As said, 2.1 is more DIY friendly...

[CitroJim]

I have got the impression from forum discussions about 2.1 Xantiae, that the 2.1 is a bit of a pig to work on.

Not at all. Everything is nice and easy on a 2.1 Xantia. The only thing that's a bit of a game is the cylinder head but then so it is in any XU/XUD car because of the tilt on the engine.

You'll find generally there's less room in an XM engine bay than in a Xantia but against that it's quite simple to pop the nose-come off complete to massively improve access.

The Lucas EPIC is a fantastic pump so long as it never sees air, only sees very clean diesel (don't neglect filter changes) and never sees veg. It can return good economy. The Bosch on earlier 2.1TD XMs is good too and will tolerate far better all the things the EPIC hates and will die for. It's basically the VP20 as found on the 1.9TD

EGR. Not necessarily. Vince's 2.1 XM on a K Plate has it (you can see the pipe on the inlet manifold...) I don't know what all the fuss is about really. I've run a 2.1TD and an HDi with EGR operative and not really found it to be an issue. Anyway, if you don't like it then it's dead easy to disable...