The 20 year rule problem

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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Spaces »

Citroening wrote:Xantia's are great workhorses and they don't half take it in their stride. Our old W Reg Xantia HDi Estate has been passed from pillar to post with what must be four friends using it for long periods of time and one friend liked it so much he bought it. For such a low price these Xantia's are great value for money, and just get on with the job. =D>
Just the point I was making when I started this thread. To my thinking they are better now when they were new since they are a few hundred quid for a good one and only now is the inbuilt longevity making itself known. They really don't seem to go wrong much, which is of course tempting fate...

RattivaMike, you seem to be disappearing up your own argument here - but I do think that cars being produced today will be disposed of sooner than those which were designed in the eighties. There is that period of still simplish cars with galvanised bodies - Xantias, some Audis - which last both mechanically and structurally well beyind the average. And of course the word 'better' means something differnet to everybody. Merc 124s are awesome in my book, but it takes many years and perhaps 100,000 miles at least to begin to understand their many qualities. So plenty buy a cheap one, turns out the fuel tank is a bit rusty and then the sunroof sticks open. To boot, it feels slow and with several hundred pounds needing to resurrect it, bloke writes them off as not that good. Similar things happened with Citroens when they were Citroen's own work.

Out of interest, I list the non-consumable parts required by my near-300,000 miles Audi. ABS ECU (63k, v odd), two strut-top bushes (198), two front wheel bearings (198 and 270), one roadwheel (121), three bottom balljoints (121, 180, 270). Amazingly the exhaust appears to be all-original, the dampers similarly (although the rears have softened up a little with my use) and there is no record of a clutch. The starter motor, alternator, road springs, water pump etc. still appear to be original, certainly the very complete history shows no record of them being replaced under the one previous owner. I take it for granted that the Bosch fuel pump has lasted, yet look on ebay and there are scores of the later 2.5 A6s with replacement pumps, often having failed at as little as 120k. Additionally, they seem to fail regularly in other areas like the suspension, so are often scrapped when their older brothers continue to run. They are quite cheap because of this. It's probably a result of cars being engineered to what the purchaser (when new) wishes - and of course real longevity isn't on the list.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Spaces »

Gibbo2286 wrote:
Spaces wrote:
And now the only car industry we have is foreign-owned and run. Even the indigenous bike industry turns out Jap clones. No Citroen would have ever needed such maintenance, even remembering the teething problems with the Ds' hydraulics.
And they got there by taking our stuff and refining it after the basic hard design and invention work had been done. The first BMW was a modified Austin 7, the first post war Datsun/Nissan engines were copies of the Austin A series and B series engines tuned and lightened by use of a fair bit of aluminium.
I think Saab's development of the Dolomite engine shows what can be done if you can be bothered. We simply weren't bothered. Having slow roads with garages round every corner didn't help - although you'd have thought when the M-ways were rolled across our land, the manufacturers would have stepped up to the mark. Post-war malaise, perhaps, coupled with lazy and cynical government. Instead, we just shovelled millions year on year into the Midlands and didn't expect anything in return - unlike the Germans, who promised VW a limited amount of breathing space in which to turn themselves around, at the end of the 60s/beginning of the 70s.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
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Re: The 20 year rule problem

Post by Peter.N. »

Gibbo2286 wrote:Fifty years ago Peter the average DIYer would be taking his cylinder head off, decoking and regrinding the valves every 10k miles or so, fitting a new diff crownwheel and pinion at 45k miles, ovehauling the gearbox to stop it falling out of gear at about the same time.

A car that completed 100k before being scrapped was a pretty rare item

I recall when Rootes first brought out the mono-constructed Hillman Minx, at under two years old we were spending hours underneath with the oxy acetylene rebuilding what went for a chassis (front end of the rear springs complete with hanger brackets came up through the floor)
Been there done that but by the late '50s the larger engined cars were becoming much more reliable, the Velox's and Cresta's that I ran gave very little trouble over quite high mileages but did fall to bits. I think the best cars were made in the '90s, most diesels were capable of 300,000 miles or more and were still maintainable on a DIY basis. I think modern engines would still be capable of those high mileages if the oil was changed at sensible intervals, I have never had a turbo fail on a diesel and I have had two with nearly 300k on them and used to cover 30k a year when I was working. I will agree that most cars are very reliable but when they do go wrong they can be a nightmare, give me a Morris minor any day.

Peter
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