1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by CitroJim »

If those valve clearances were measured hot then they are jolly tight. It's a quirk of the XUD that the valve clearances are tightest when stone cold. If those measurements were made on a hot or warm engine then chances are the clearances will be negative when stone cold...

That may account for the hard starting and if the clearances have been tight for a while then you may well have burned valve seats reducing compression. The XUDT is a fairly low compression engine by diesel standards anyway and it doesn't take a great deal of valve leakage to really upset it... I'm not saying it'll be a full cure but I, as a first move, get those valve clearances nearer to the recommended just to eliminate them. It's better to err slightly on the wide side... Haynes offers a fair guide on how to calculate the required shim thickness. Alternatively, here's a little spreadsheet tool to help you.

To me the engine sounds like it's running very retarded. This too will account for all your ills. I've seen it once before where the timing device actuating piston, which is hydraulically operated with the diesel acting as the hydraulic medium, has worn so much that it can no longer move and offer advance.

An easy way to tell is to have the car on Pug DIAG2000 diagnostics and see if the pump is trying to set the advance correctly as commanded by the ECU, assuming it as an AS3 semi-electronic Bosch. Also, diagnostics may show up a Timing Motion fault which indicates the pump cannot follow the commands given to it either because the timing device piston is worn, the electrovalve has failed or perhaps more commonly because there is insufficient transfer pressure in the pump to operate the timing device. There are three possible causes: a blocked fuel filter or tank strainer starving the pump of fuel volume, a blocked return fuel line back to the tank or a stuck transfer pressure regulator. The transfer pressure regulator is easy to get at. Look for the identical blanked off orifice opposite the fuel inlet union. Unscrew it and out comes the regulator. Check it is not gummed up. Also, on the subject of gummed up, check the tiny hole in the return line banjo union and the fine mesh filter under it is not blocked and gummed up. Gumming of any of these components can be a problem when running veg.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Foggyoutcome »

The steam cleans the combustion chamber if any veg gets sticky.
I have ha the same thing happen to me when the I tank gauze was block up.
I've ran on veg for 5 years.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by jgra1 »

whereabouts are you Flynn?
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Xantianut »

Ay up!

Also worth expending a few quid on some injector cleaner. Works a treat on our Ford engined minibuses with Bosch pumps. But then, we don't run 'em on veggie.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Flynn2 »

CitroJim wrote:If those valve clearances were measured hot then they are jolly tight. It's a quirk of the XUD that the valve clearances are tightest when stone cold. If those measurements were made on a hot or warm engine then chances are the clearances will be negative when stone cold...

That may account for the hard starting and if the clearances have been tight for a while then you may well have burned valve seats reducing compression. The XUDT is a fairly low compression engine by diesel standards anyway and it doesn't take a great deal of valve leakage to really upset it... I'm not saying it'll be a full cure but I, as a first move, get those valve clearances nearer to the recommended just to eliminate them. It's better to err slightly on the wide side... Haynes offers a fair guide on how to calculate the required shim thickness. Alternatively, here's a little spreadsheet tool to help you.

To me the engine sounds like it's running very retarded. This too will account for all your ills. I've seen it once before where the timing device actuating piston, which is hydraulically operated with the diesel acting as the hydraulic medium, has worn so much that it can no longer move and offer advance.

An easy way to tell is to have the car on Pug DIAG2000 diagnostics and see if the pump is trying to set the advance correctly as commanded by the ECU, assuming it as an AS3 semi-electronic Bosch. Also, diagnostics may show up a Timing Motion fault which indicates the pump cannot follow the commands given to it either because the timing device piston is worn, the electrovalve has failed or perhaps more commonly because there is insufficient transfer pressure in the pump to operate the timing device. There are three possible causes: a blocked fuel filter or tank strainer starving the pump of fuel volume, a blocked return fuel line back to the tank or a stuck transfer pressure regulator. The transfer pressure regulator is easy to get at. Look for the identical blanked off orifice opposite the fuel inlet union. Unscrew it and out comes the regulator. Check it is not gummed up. Also, on the subject of gummed up, check the tiny hole in the return line banjo union and the fine mesh filter under it is not blocked and gummed up. Gumming of any of these components can be a problem when running veg.
These clearances were measured with the engine stone cold so they would loosen up a bit when warm. The pump on my car is fully mechanical, it only needs a 12v to the stop solenoid to get it running. It is also running in the middle of the timing slot, it was fine before running there so I should think it would be okay now.

I've tried two different fuel returns on the pump, but I can't see how a blocked fuel return or a blocked fuel filter would cause this. When I start the engine it runs at about 500 RPM, revs itself up a bit (sort of like hunting, but very pronounced) chugs some white and black smoke, then settles down to idle with a steady puff of white smoke (boiled diesel) every few seconds accompanied by a missfire.

I can't remember how long I've had the smoke, I'm sure it was since before I took the inlet manifold off, but just incase could a leaky inlet manifold allow the engine to draw more air in on one cylinder and therefore lead to an incomplete combustion? But diesel engines always have the full amount of air don't they :?

I'm pretty sure I can rule out the head gasket as there are absolutely no symptoms of it, not now or before. For the price of a compression test (£25) I could nearly get a set of second hand injectors to try. But I've already tried two sets (although they were run on the old pump which did get a few drops of water in it when it rained during the rebuild) so I am somewhat reluctant.
jgra1 wrote:whereabouts are you Flynn?
I'm from Kent, same as you it seems.
Ay up!

Also worth expending a few quid on some injector cleaner. Works a treat on our Ford engined minibuses with Bosch pumps. But then, we don't run 'em on veggie.
Trouble is, I've tried two different sets of injectors, although they were both run on the same pump which did get a few drops of water in it, so maybe that has caused them to rust internally. If this were the issue, however, I would have expected it to run better on diesel but if anything it runs worse on diesel than it does on vegy.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by uncle buck »

With respect to all that has been said.....My money's on the injectors.

I appreciate that you have tried a couple of sets but if I were in your shoes I would now have the correct injectors checked, this may involve new tips & the crack off pressure checked.

When you have a fault like this you can assume all you like but you will only get to the bottom of the problem by ruling out one thing at a time.


Good luck.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by citronut »

maybe it has a cracked head as it warms up the crack opens just in one combustion chamber

also i always thought that as an engine warms up tolerance's become tighter as all the metals expand,
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by oneday »

i thougt thats why you had a gap to allow room for metal expansion when hot
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Flynn2 »

I don't know. I've spent money on another injector pump, new injector seals, loads of veg and derv to test it, new cambelt, disturbed the manifold gasket so now that needs replacing, I just can't afford to spend anymore money without a reasonable theory. Also there are no symptoms to suggest that the head gasket has blown.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Peter.N. »

Have you done a compression check yet?

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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Flynn2 »

A compression test costs the same as a set of second hand injectors so no.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by CitroJim »

citronut wrote: also i always thought that as an engine warms up tolerance's become tighter as all the metals expand,
Not an XUD Malcolm..

It was/is a common problem for the little XUD7 to suffer horrendous cold-starting difficulties and yet be perfect once a little warm due to tight clearances. Been there myself. XUD valve clearances loosen as the engine warms up - not 'tother way about as would be expected. Counter-intuitive but true...
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by steelcityuk »

After the rebuild of my 2.1TD I had a serious problem with it starting and running. The injectors and pump had come off a spare engine I'd bought that I'd seen running perfectly just minutes before I loaded it into the back of my A Class. The rebuilt engine was difficult to start, shook violently, smoked like a demon and wouldn't idle. After checking the timing twice, swapping out the hydraulic tappets, etc. I put the original injectors back in. The engine started up perfectly, idled fine and no smoke. So I took the faulty set to my local Bosch specialist for a rebuild then fitted them. I still can't explain how a working set of injectors became faulty just by removing and refitting them. The difference was night and day.

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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by Flynn2 »

Right, stripped, cleaned and reassembled existing injectors-no change. I am still going to try another set of injectors as it is easier than replacing valve shims or indeed changing the head gasket. Also, completely off topic, does anyone know if the combined manifold gaskket for an XUD7 is the same size as that for the XUD9? I know it's the same design just want to check there are no differences before I fit it because the packet says XUD7 on it.
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Re: 1.9 XUD9TE idle, starting and smoke problems

Post by philthyD »

has anyone got to the bottom of this yet? because unfortunately i am having almost the exact same issue

at low RPM steering is heavy indicating low power, what's weird is i cant tell whether or not their has been a drop in power or not because i've never put my foot down hard at low RPM. There being no point in doing so due to the fact that it has a turbo that only does anything over 1500RPM)

also the only other difference i can see is that it doesn't hunt on idle it just miss-fires excessively!

I can physically hear how many, how often and which cylinders are firing.

only started recently and i've been guessing and looking about on the internet for a couple of days for likely causes, most obviouse one would be low compression on start-up, because when hot the engine is fine.

however i have no idea what could be causing it, be it a loose pin on con rod, gummed rings from a previous couple of months running veg, or simply 2 or 3 heater plugs going all at the same time?

i dont know where to start...... should really start a new thread but i am curiose about the result of this one see.....
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