Xantia toe in setting ?

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Mandrake
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

jacksun1987 wrote:my xantia shakes at 70 to 80. as well but i need to get it the tracking adjusted as well. But its ok below 70 75 starts shaking a tiny bit then 80 your hands are falling off. If got used to it lol
Shaking between 70-80mph won't be wheel alignment, it's wheel balance.

I'm sure my wheel alignment is still miles out but once they got all 4 wheels balanced properly there is not the slightest vibration between 70-80 or in fact at any speed, so I don't think wheel alignment has any significant effect on vibration at those speeds unless you have play in the track rod joints. (Even then it still takes a wheel imbalance to trigger the vibration in the first place, even if track rod play can make it worse)

If you have alloy wheels you'll find a lot of places will have a heck of a time balancing them properly as their adapters don't fit the rims properly. Find somewhere that knows what they're doing and if necessary keep taking it back until they get the balance right...

(Took these guys 3 tries in a row but they finally did it right after totally botching it the first two times...)
Simon

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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

Well I've ordered two of the 355mm long laser spirt levels that I linked to on ebay - £35 all up including postage, should be here on Monday, so I guess I've committed to building this contraption and doing the adjustment myself since thats more than the cost of paying for a wheel alignment. :lol:

The thing is though that I'm a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to things like this and I'd rather do it myself if I think I can do it accurately - I just don't trust most places to do it properly, certainly not tyre/exhaust places...and don't really want to throw more money away on having someone else do it wrong a second time.

I'll have to come up with a good way of clamping them on the alloys - I decided that the longer 355mm levels that are nearly as long as the diameter of the rim was the better option than the cheaper 210mm ones, I'll probably cut a piece of square tube thats the right length to rest on the rim lip then clamp the level to that, and then use some kind of band looped through the holes in the rim.
Simon

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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by KennyW »

Simon,

Why buy the dearer ones when 2 lengths of scaffolding tube or wood cut to 15" or 400mms approx attached to laser levels through holes conveniently done by citroen ,would do same job.

I'm going for smaller levels and wood since I have some gash bits of wood lying around at home.

Race you get done in our weather :lol: :!: :?:

Kenny

PS great Idea :wink:
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by thorter »

These laser levels look very suitable. Tension springs may be a good way to attach, and Screwfix have boxes of assorted sizes, though possibly all a bit small/weak. Rubber bands cut from inner tubes are also good (you can vary the width), though inner tubes are not too common these days - perhaps from a Mountain Bike? Just remember (again) to choose a method that allows slight rotational alignment, but will not budge during the measurements. If you have access to a lathe, an extended wheel bolt and hold down piece acting on the centre could work.

I quite agree about doing this sort of job yourself, particularly if you factor in the time to take the car, hang about, then need to take it back later to be redone! My experience is that the method gives very consistent results when repeated, well within half a millimetre. You can be lucky to get +/-1mm repeatability setting track in other ways, and end up taking an average.

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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

Kenny, The other reason I got the longer ones was the shorter ones were getting poor reviews including a few people saying the laser was too weak to be seen even at 3 metres in sunlight... which kind of defeats the purpose. :? The slightly dearer ones look a bit better quality and were also next working day delivery... I have next week off so I wanted to tinker with this durning the week... :)
Simon

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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by mendedit »

If I were to go to all that trouble I'd buy a Gunson's Trakrite currently discounted at £45 new
or trakrite laser (even better) at less than a hundred.
The world is full of them and a lot are in
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by thorter »

Before I ended up with the method being discussed, I tried a turntable track gauge. I also made up a plate type gauge where the plate can move sideways on rollers, the car is driven over, and the distance the plate moves sideways is measured. At one time, Citroen specified such a device.

Both these methods gave results that changed dependent on the condition of the tyre treads, with new (or swapped over) tyres particularly suspect for upsetting things. Also rolling the wheel by hand, and driving over, gave different results. However, repeatability for precisely the same conditions was reasonable.

Using my method, with the Xantia track set to about 1.5mm toe out, it will run dead straight on an ordinary level road for long distances without touching the steering wheel. I think this is a good indication of accurate tracking, and it is easy to get it right first time.

Fred
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

So you recommend 1.5mm then ? From memory that's what my previous Xantia was set to, and the tracking and centring always felt good on that one, and there was no problem with tyre wear.

The steering did feel good on this Xantia, until they messed up the adjustment...I'm kinda curious to find out what it is actually set to at the moment. I bet it's something crazy like 4-6mm toe in!

By my calculation, assuming the original track setting was 1.5mm toe out and they lengthened the right track rod by 3 turns it would now be 4.5mm toe IN. :roll:
Simon

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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by thorter »

Yes, 1.5mm is in the centre of the range, and seems to give best steering feel. The Xantia steering always feels fairly dead, but it is still very precise and free of wander.

Fred
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by f00lzz »

Mandrake wrote:
I still think the right one doesn't look very good, but is it enough to explain a really bad (worst I've ever encountered on any car) shake at 75mph that feels like loose wheel nuts, or is it just a case of them completely screwing up the wheel balance on one or more wheels ?

Should there be any balance weights on the outside of an alloy rim ? All the weights are on the inner rim edge. I've seen adhesive weights on the inside near the outside edge on alloys before, but they haven't added any on these.

Is it possible the wheel somehow isn't centring properly on the hub ? I have had both wheels off then on again when I came back from the tire fitters while I was fitting handbrake cables... its going to be Wednesday now before I can get back to the fitters to have the wheel balance rechecked.
I can't tell from the video... but are these centreless wheels? If they are then it is a bit of a 'lottery' to get a place who can balance them properly. With regard to the tyres, I would guess poor storage has caused some distortion and no, don't accept that they may be OK after a few more miles... go back to the place ASAP and state your case for replacement tyres and re-tracking.
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

f00lzz wrote:
I can't tell from the video... but are these centreless wheels? If they are then it is a bit of a 'lottery' to get a place who can balance them properly. With regard to the tyres, I would guess poor storage has caused some distortion and no, don't accept that they may be OK after a few more miles... go back to the place ASAP and state your case for replacement tyres and re-tracking.
Hi Ian,

I'm assuming you replied before reading right through the thread, the tyre balance issue is now sorted, they just had the balance WAY out the first two times, on all 4 wheels. Yes, they are centerless rims, which is why they had so much trouble balancing them.

Despite my skepticism that it was only balancing at fault there is now no vibration at all between 70-80mph, I haven't rechecked the shape of the tyre since I took that video, my guess is that it will be almost round now. The tyre showing the odd shape in the video was less than 3 months old based on the date code on the sidewall, so any deformation due to storage shouldn't be permanent and has probably worked itself out now.

Wheel alignment is another matter though, they botched that up completely as well, and unlike the balancing I'm not wasting my time giving them a second chance. After watching the method they used to do it I know they won't get accurate results hence the DIY approach with the laser levels that has been discussed later in the thread. I'd rather do it myself if I can! It's one of those things where it's often a case of if you want it done properly, do it yourself.
Simon

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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

KennyW wrote: I'm going for smaller levels and wood since I have some gash bits of wood lying around at home.

Race you get done in our weather :lol: :!: :?:
Sorry Kenny but I'm going to have to claim victory in this two horse race, and I have the photo finish to prove it. :lol:

Here are the scales I made out of a couple of lengths of 25x45mm pine and a bit of scrap plywood for the targets: (click for full image)
IMG_4750.jpg
Mounting system for the laser: (click for full image)
IMG_4749.jpg
The mounting system using bungie cords isn't ideal but its what I managed to come up with. The piece of wood extends just past the lip of the rim to sit on top of it but doesn't touch the tyre. I had to do this instead of sitting it inside the lip to be able to clear the center of the rim. To stop things sliding around I put a few layers of rubberised electrical tape on the wood both at the ends and further in, this allows the wood to grip the rim and also the laser level so that things stay stable.

The main drawback of the bungie cords is that I had to jack one side of the car up to turn the wheel so that both wheels were pointing ahead the same time. I couldn't think of an easy way to clamp to the alloys that would give the necessary freedom to turn the laser around to level both at the same time.

Close up of the front left target: (click for full image)
IMG_4745.jpg
The target size is 100mm wide by 320mm tall, the horizontal line near the top is 290mm which is the axle height of the car, thus the target height when rolling the car backwards and forwards, although anywhere on the visible lines should be ok. Targets were 2 metres from the centre of the wheel since the radius of the hub is 200mm.

To keep things simple I slid one of the targets sideways so that the left hand side was aligned on the same number front and rear - in this case 5, then the difference on the right hand side could be directly read out.

So what was the result ? With the left targets aligned the front right target was on 5 and the rear target on 3.5 (cm) therefore the rear was 15mm narrower than the front, allowing for the 10x magnification that means the tracking is exactly 1.5mm toe out. :shock:

I'm both surprised and disappointed by this, I was so sure that it was miles out, and yet it seems to be perfect. I even repeated the measurement about 5 times - rolling backwards and forwards each time, and got exactly the same measurement.

Bear in mind that I have adjusted the centring by more than a turn since they adjusted the tracking since it came back with the steering wheel badly offset. Also I thought that I had made an increase to the toe out, I can't remember if it was 1/4 turn on both sides or 1/2 turn on both side, in fact I can't even remember for certain whether I did or not. :?

Somehow after all that the adjustment is spot on, which poses more questions than it answers since the steering is very vague and it does pull erratically to the sides under acceleration. :( I guess it must be something else then, most likely the lower arm bushes, which are pretty knackered. Perhaps there was far too much toe out before and that was taking up the slack in the lower arm bushes and now that excess toe out is gone the slack is causing wandering. Oh well, at least I know the tracking is correct.
Last edited by Mandrake on 05 Sep 2012, 18:36, edited 3 times in total.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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1978 CX 2400
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by Mandrake »

Front right target: (click for full image)
IMG_4746.jpg
Rear left target: (click for full image)
IMG_4741.jpg
Rear right target: (click for full image)
IMG_4742.jpg
Simon

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2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
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Re: Xantia toe in setting ?

Post by thorter »

Here are replacement photos for the Aug 22nd post.
Method.jpg
LaserFitting.jpg
TargetBoards.jpg
SettingScales.JPG
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