C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

dnsey
Posts: 1538
Joined: 20 Oct 2004, 01:39
Location:
My Cars:
x 19

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by dnsey »

garage can't find anything loose or worn apart from one track rod
Which the original garage should have found and reported, as it makes adjusting the tracking pointless!
C5Alan
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 23:37
Location: Paisley (Near Glasgow Scotland)
My Cars:
Contact:

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by C5Alan »

dnsey wrote:
garage can't find anything loose or worn apart from one track rod
Which the original garage should have found and reported, as it makes adjusting the tracking pointless!
That's what I would have thought
2003 C5 2.0 HDi 110hp Exclusive only done 218,000miles so just about run in. Family owned from new. Now Sold

2002 Renault Scenic 1.9Dci 111,000miles the new work bus
C5Alan
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 23:37
Location: Paisley (Near Glasgow Scotland)
My Cars:
Contact:

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by C5Alan »

OK after only 800 miles and 3 weeks since the last time I had the tracking done the tyres are nearly done so had her in to a specialist to get looked at he couldnt find anything wrong some very slight play in outter track rod ends. he then sent her to get the tracking checked at a place he trusts and they said it was way out and I need 2 new tyres these will be replaced tomorrow with a pair of part worns until I am sure they will last longer than a month.

Is it just the pot holes or speed bumps round here that is doing it or is someone taking the mick outta me and not doing the tracking right in the first place???

That is 3 different places have now done the tracking on this car if this time it is not cured I will have to get a new car as nobody can find anything wrong, bent or worn. I am starting to like this car now and dont really want to replace it :( plus im skint at the mo and finding enough cash for a decent car big enough and economical enough for what I need wont be easy. I do a lot of town driving due to my evening job delivering pizza for pizza hut and hall a lot of tools and equipment around during the day as a handy man both town and motor way and towing so this c5 does tick a lot of boxes especially the cruise control that has kept me from a few speeding tickets lol
2003 C5 2.0 HDi 110hp Exclusive only done 218,000miles so just about run in. Family owned from new. Now Sold

2002 Renault Scenic 1.9Dci 111,000miles the new work bus
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by KevMayer »

The rear tyres on my C5 are worn down more on the outer edge. The wear isn't just on the edge, the whole rear tyre profile tapers to the outer edge. i.e about 4 mm tread depth on the inner edge and 2 mm at the outer edge. My front tyres are ok.

I've had this wear pattern on the rears for some time now but, it was never like this when I first had the car. So, I suspect something is worn.

My C5 has just flown through it's MOT with all suspension bushes etc ok.

Looking around different forums, this tyre wear is typical of lots of modern cars which have a good degree of toe-in for the rear wheels to improve rear end stability. So, this wear is seen on many different cars. But, I didn't see this when I first had the C5 (got it at 3 years old). So, something must have changed.

My theory is that the bushes supporting the rear subframe to the body could be worn.

The C5, like many cars nowadays, has passive rear wheel stearing where the rear wheels turn slightly in the direction of travel when the body leans on cornering. The rubber mounts at the front of the rear subframe are designed to 'give' slightly in such a way that, when turning left, say, the body weight roles to the right, this pressure on the bushes pushes the rear subframe to the left and so the rear wheels also turn left.

Now, if these rear subframe mounts are deteriorating, as rubber does, then, when it's just you in the car and you're sitting on the right side your weight is only on the right, then the body will effectivelly be rolling to the right even when driving in a straight line, and so the rear wheels will be turned slightly left. This could be the cause of the tyre wear at the rear.

New rear subframe bushes may be the answer, but, the front bushes of the subframe look like a tricky job (special tools needed).
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
My Cars:
x 92

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by citronut »

Kev
if the rear sub frame front bush's were doing what your saying, this would wear one tyre on the inside edge and the other on the outside edge,

with tracking both tyres are trying to straighten up so wear both tyres on the inside edge's if toeing out, and both tyres on the outside edge if toeing in,

is it possible the tyre shops that have done the tracking up to now have set/adjusted it with the car on its highest suspension setting,
as this would severely alter the caster camber angle, so you will put the tracking way out of adjusted in this scenario,

the tracking must be checked/set/adjusted on level ground, normal suspension height and all the tyre pressures correct,

also with no play in any suspension or steering joint/bush,

regards malcolm
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by KevMayer »

The tyre wear on both my rears is quite even. Both sides are wearing more on the outside.

The wear has become a lot more noticeable, but, this may be due to the quality of the tyres. I have Pirellis on at the moment. Maybe they are a softer compound than the cheaper brands I usually have fitted.

The last time I had the tracking checked the C5 was up on ramps at normal suspension height and all tyre pressures were good. It drives straight and doesn't pull to either side on a level road. It follows the camber a bit, but doesn't pull excessively.

What I sometimes notice is that when I get out, It always looks just a fraction lower on the driver's side. Could this put sideways force on the rear subframe?

The point I'm trying to make is that if all other suspension bushes/joints appear fine, could the subframe mounts be the only rubbers which aren't checked. If they're worn what effect would they have?
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
My Cars:
x 92

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by citronut »

KevMayer wrote: The wear has become a lot more noticeable, but, this may be due to the quality of the tyres. I have Pirellis on at the moment. Maybe they are a softer compound than the cheaper brands I usually have fitted.
the older citroens when on Michelin's used to be very light on the tyres, and back then the Michelin's used to be very soft compound, if you fited Dunlop or Goodyear's which were back then a harder compound, they used to wear out quicker,
KevMayer wrote: The last time I had the tracking checked the C5 was up on ramps at normal suspension height and all tyre pressures were good. It drives straight and doesn't pull to either side on a level road. It follows the camber a bit, but doesn't pull excessively.
i was referring to Alans situation here

KevMayer wrote: What I sometimes notice is that when I get out, It always looks just a fraction lower on the driver's side. Could this put sideways force on the rear subframe?

The point I'm trying to make is that if all other suspension bushes/joints appear fine, could the subframe mounts be the only rubbers which aren't checked. If they're worn what effect would they have?
as i said earlier Kev
if sub frame bush's were worn/weak this would were one tyre on one edge and the other on the opposite edge, not both thyres the same as tracking out would,

regards malcolm
C5Alan
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 23:37
Location: Paisley (Near Glasgow Scotland)
My Cars:
Contact:

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by C5Alan »

Since replacing the rears touch wood they seem to be running fine no probs no obvious extreme wear just the fronts but with new tyres on the front and tracking redone we will see she still seems to pull to the left but put this down to camberof the road not had her on the motorway to check this yet

As nothing is worn or loose on the car or so I have been told I am worried at what the prob is if it come back but we will see. I feel most of the info here is based on the rear end but the problem is more front end but will get some time latter and re-read the whole thread. Thanks for all the help thus far.
2003 C5 2.0 HDi 110hp Exclusive only done 218,000miles so just about run in. Family owned from new. Now Sold

2002 Renault Scenic 1.9Dci 111,000miles the new work bus
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by cachaciero »

citronut wrote:as i said earlier Kev
if sub frame bush's were worn/weak this would were one tyre on one edge and the other on the opposite edge, not both thyres the same as tracking out would,

regards malcolm
Maybe not! if the bushes have softened enough to cause the steering to be accentuated then as you go around say a right hand bend the wheels will turn to the right and any scrubbing (caused by more than optimum steering angle) would tend to be on the outside of the LH wheel and the inside of the RH wheel, however the weight will be on the LH wheel so this will likely scrub far more than the RH (inner wheel) with corresponding increase in wear, outside heavy inner less so. This would apply to turns in either direction and the accumulative effect would be to cause wear as Kev describes.
Like Kev I have long had suspicous thoughts about subframe bushes and the theory of drivers weight being enough to cause the passive rear steering to have an effect got me quite exited until I realized that while it may explain tyre wear (which would be asymetric) it didn't explain the other problem which seems to dog many C5's a constant steering bias to the Left. If drivers weight was causing the rear wheels to "steer" it would surely be that as they applied a bias consistant with going around a LH bend this would tend to rotate the back of the car clockwise around the front (which is going straight) hence the bias would be to the right not the left.
However it seems to me that to ensure that with a passive system the wheels always track true a degree of toe in on the rear wheels would be desirable which if exagerated would also cause wear across the tyre, might be worth checking what the rear wheel angle is with respect to the vehicle center line, it's also worth thinking about the fact that many proffesional tracking devices use the rear wheels as a reference for tracking the fronts.

cachaciero
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
1984 Ford Scorpio
1981 CX 2.4 Pallas Auto
Renault 21
1220 GS Club
Rover P6 2000TC
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
My Cars:
x 92

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by citronut »

i didnt think a front sub frame was bushed only the rear's are,
or at least on earlier cars like BX's and XANt's,

i still cant see how sub frame bush's worn or soften can/could cause both tyres on any one axle to wear identically'
as the only track this will put out of line would be front to rear axle's,
with tracking out both wheels on the same axle will always try to equal themselves out, this is why both tyres will always wear identically, both inner or both outter edge's,

regards malcolm
cachaciero
Posts: 1407
Joined: 13 Apr 2009, 07:24
Location: West Sussex U.K
My Cars:
x 9

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by cachaciero »

Think there might be a bit of confusion here :-)
Subframe bushes the front subframe is not (as far as I know mounted) in rubber bushes as such, However I was only thinking about the the rear subframe or probably better described the rear axle which I think of as a subframe because that is what it is in effect, this is mounted on substantial rubber bushes front and rear, the front bushes on the axle have to be fitted to a specific orientation to ensure the passive steering. Wear on any tyre is caused by the tyre scrubbing sideways excessive toe in or out will cause the tyre to scrub as will skidding sideways. IF the rear axle was permanently slightly canted then I would expect one tyre to wear on the outside shoulder and the other on the inside shoulder. If there was toe in on the rear wheels I would expect that both tyres would exhibit wear on the outside shoulder, which mine do though the wear is across the tyre as a whole, the inner wearing little the outside more so, which I think is what Kev was describing.

cachaciero
2006 Toyota Prius T Spirit
2001 2.2 C5 Exclusive SE
1996 XM 2.1 TD Auto VSX
1995 XM 2.1 TD Auto SX died @ 140K
1987 CX 2.5 Gti Turbo II dead
1984 Ford Scorpio
1981 CX 2.4 Pallas Auto
Renault 21
1220 GS Club
Rover P6 2000TC
citronut
Posts: 10937
Joined: 29 Apr 2005, 00:46
Location: United Kingdom east sussex
My Cars:
x 92

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by citronut »

ok that's clarified the prob you have on car,

my reasoning was it seemed to me that Kev was suggesting if the rear axle/beam/sub frame bush's were worn or softer than they should be it might wear the tyres both either outter or both inner edges tha same, as traking out will/does do,

maybe its just me miss reading what had been said :shock: :roll: :wink:

regards malcolm
KevMayer
Posts: 1051
Joined: 12 Sep 2003, 22:01
Location: Staffordshire, United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 2

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by KevMayer »

Has anyone changed the rear subframe mounts on a C5 hatch?
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
C5Alan
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 23:37
Location: Paisley (Near Glasgow Scotland)
My Cars:
Contact:

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by C5Alan »

looks like the tyres are still wearing ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

think I might end up selling her and look for something else just cant keep up this tyre work every month
2003 C5 2.0 HDi 110hp Exclusive only done 218,000miles so just about run in. Family owned from new. Now Sold

2002 Renault Scenic 1.9Dci 111,000miles the new work bus
C5Alan
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Apr 2012, 23:37
Location: Paisley (Near Glasgow Scotland)
My Cars:
Contact:

Re: C5 tyre wear outside edge on all 4 tyres??? Help!

Post by C5Alan »

After some beer fuelled discussion down the pub my mate has come up with an idea get the front tyres to wear normally as the wheels are wearing on the outside seemingly toe in get the tracking set up slightly more toe out. My thinking is it isn't that hard so adjust the track rods to lengthen them 1 turn pass side (fastest wear) 1/2 turn drivers side, this should mean they will wear normally. Am I totally insane will this even work would more or less adjustment be better????????
2003 C5 2.0 HDi 110hp Exclusive only done 218,000miles so just about run in. Family owned from new. Now Sold

2002 Renault Scenic 1.9Dci 111,000miles the new work bus
Post Reply