Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Rhothgar »

I have now determined that everything is fine in the glow plug department.

Looking at the Citroen Diagnostic on service.citroen it asks! Does the thermostatic element of the fast idling device operate correctly ?

How would you know? Surely this is a by substitution check unless someone clever on here knows how much the cable should move? I am going to try and adjust mine up this morning before I start the car but it's nasty to get to by the looks of it. Not quite as bad as glow plug behind the pump but not far off.
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by jgra1 »

hi Roger...

I must admit mine has been disconnected for some years.. I think I should have a spare and would be interested to know if this device will pull the ideling speed up for a few mins in the morning.. would help a lot with WVO

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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Rhothgar »

Morning John,

It is my basic understanding that this is what it does. As I understand it, It acts on the fast idle lever because all it is is a waxstat screwed into the water jacket just behind the fuel filter. The cable should be taut when cold and it slackened as the water behind the thermostat heats up.

I adjusted Sylv's ZX earlier this year. Very easy on a Lucas pump!

I bet you're having fun with WVO at the moment, aren't you?
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Peter.N. »

Most of them don't work after a few years but you can force the lever back to simulate it working.

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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by jgra1 »

' bet you're having fun with WVO at the moment, aren't you?'

ahh tis ok ;) still on 100% .. although may change that from this weekend..
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Rhothgar »

Peter.N. wrote:Most of them don't work after a few years but you can force the lever back to simulate it working.

Peter
Morning Peter,

From what you're saying then, maybe my cold start problem is not related to this either!

Losing options now. Definitely no air leak as I changed all the leak-offs earlier this year. It hesitates for varying lengths of time. Perhaps I won't try and adjust it this morning then and simply take a video of it and upload.
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Rhothgar »

Fast idle lever is jammed far over to the right on startup so it's not that!

What else can I look at? Anyone? Going to Austria next week and car is not starting easy at 4 degrees let alone -20 degs. My Bosch pump is the one with the throttle lever position switch if that heps identify it. Haynes manual shows some Bosch pump without this.
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by CitroJim »

Roger, back to basics on this one...

Question 1. Exactly how hard is the car to start when the brass monkeys shiver? Describe a typical start event from the glowplug light going out to the engine starting.

Question 2. If the engine cranks but does not fire when it's hard to start, is there any smoke issuing from the exhaust?

If the answer to question 2 is yes, and it's white/grey then this shows a problem with the engine compression. Fuel is being supplied but is not being ignited. If you see no smoke then the problem is on your fuel side of things...

If you see white smoke then the most likely reason for it could well be tight valve clearances. It's a quirk of the XUD that valve clearances are tightest when the engine is stone cold and they can get so tight that when the engine is colder than a hypothermic brass monkey the valves can remain partially open and loose enough compression to make it hard to start.

Let's take it from there.. An honest and detailed answer to question 1 will help enormously.
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Peter.N. »

I would concur.

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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Old-Guy »

I had similar problems in the coldest weather (never got Austria-cold here in the Cotswolds) last winter. Long story short - the problem lay in the cheapo battery that I had fitted less than about 18 months before. Borrowed the use of a new Transit battery - instant below-zero start with jump leads. Bought a new heavy-duty Varta as recommended by someone else on here - end of problems. The explanation was that on a really cold morning, the cheapo battery couldn't provide enough amps to spin the engine over quite fast enough to get it to catch on all 4. The starter wasn't obviously labouring and would give me several attempts, but the alternatives cranked noticeably faster.

I'd check the complete battery/starter circuit for solid clean contacts - I've known a corroded starter-to-bell-housing connection to be the source of poor starting (not on a Xantia).

My Reasoning: 'Diesel' engines are more properly compression-ignition engines in which sudden compression of the air in the cylinder makes it hot and dense enough for the fuel to self-combust as it's injected. If both air temperature and pressure (inter-related) don't rise high enough, the fuel simply won't ignite. The faster the air is compressed, the higher the temperature/pressure because it has less time to lose heat to the cold metal of the engine. Glow plugs in the combustion chamber can only raise the air temperature/pressure to some extent because air is a poor conductor of heat (good insulator). At the moment of injection most of the car has just been pushed out of the cold cylinder and has had only microseconds to gain heat by conduction from the glow-plug.
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by jgra1 »

also give a check on the earth return cable Roger.. mine has been a constant source of issues, displaying the same symptoms as a flat bat..
these gremlins seemingly started again this morning....
although, once the engine cranked a couple of times it fired up quite quickly after that..

as an aside, my TD has never been the quickest starter.. on a cold morning it may take 7 turns, on a cold mornign with full WVO, more like 14 and some throttle once it catches..

As a slight difference to Old guys good posting, I must admit all of my TD's have never failed to start, even with a low battery and winter (assuming the cars were healthy otherwise) - i.e. if I have had anything like a reasonable rate of turn, they caught..

:O
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Rhothgar »

CitroJim wrote:Roger, back to basics on this one...

Question 1. Exactly how hard is the car to start when the brass monkeys shiver? Describe a typical start event from the glowplug light going out to the engine starting.
The car is now at a stage in on a cold morning start where it immediately fires and then stalls. That is with leaving it 10 seconds after the glow plug light goes out and before the relay clicks off.

Second turn over. Same. Maybe even onto the third before it turns over, starts and keeps going. Naturally there is smoke upon start up because from the first and second attempts there is probably still unburnt fuel.

CitroJim wrote:Question 2. If the engine cranks but does not fire when it's hard to start, is there any smoke issuing from the exhaust?
.

Not applicable.
CitroJim wrote:Let's take it from there.. An honest and detailed answer to question 1 will help enormously.
You know I'm always honest!

Once it had warmed up this morning. I had a good look around again. I squirted some WD40 on the fast idle lever and the throttle load lever pivots. It started not too bad tonight after sitting at our warehouse all afternoon.

I was that fed up this morning that I called my mate 'Bosch' who specialises in Bosch pumps and had a chat with him. He's a Diesel Tuner of lord knows how many years experience. He's cracking on a bit in years and probably left school at 14 as was the norm way back when.

He said it sounds like the everything needs balancing. He described the adjustments necessary to me and seemed to me to be quite a bit different from the official Citroen Service line.

A couple of things I need clarity on before I attempt this please.

BoL states 850 +0 - 50 rp, for idle speed for vehicles fitted with AC. Anti-stall speed 1500 + or - 100 rpm. Fast idle speed 950 + or -50 rpm.

What I am not understanding is what is the difference between anti-stall speed and fast idle? I'd have thought they were the same but when 'Bosch' was telling me how to set it up he was pretty clear on the procedure. When I mentioned the 3mm. shim procedure, he told me to ignore that. I didn't ask him specifically what the difference was. I would imagine there are some internal workings that act independently between the load lever and the fast idle lever but how can the anti-speed adjustment act as a stop for the load lever, which to me suggests THAT controls idling and the fast idle lever which also controls idling - BOY! I'M CONFUSED! :?

I will try to recount exactly what he said.

1. Loosen lock nuts on idle screw and fast idle screw. Also, I think he said loosen fast idle cable end nut..
2. Back off the anti-stall speed adjustment screw.
3. Set idle speed.
4. Turn anti-stall speed adjustment screw until 1500rpm is achieved.
5. Remove damper from load lever as it can cloud the issue.
6. Operate throttle load lever and let go. Back off anti-stall adjustment screw half a turn at a time, operating load lever and letting it snap back, until engine stalls. Then screw in anti-stall adjustment screw until engine no longer stalls when load lever is operated and released.
7. Adjust fast idle adjustment screw until 1200 rpm is achieved.
8. Re-tighten fast idle cable end nut.

I find it hard to believe that this adjustment should require any adjustment. People keep saying how good the Bosch pump is and how they never need any adjustment. Perhaps I am too much into that.

Why are all the adjustments so difficult to access on the bosch pump? It's pretty ridiculous as a design to be honest. The 10mm nuts or whatever they are the fast idel, idle and anti-stall look nigh on impossible to access. Any tips or what spanner to use? Cranked, angled or otherwise?
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Rhothgar »

Old-Guy wrote:The explanation was that on a really cold morning, the cheapo battery couldn't provide enough amps to spin the engine over quite fast enough to get it to catch on all 4. The starter wasn't obviously labouring and would give me several attempts, but the alternatives cranked noticeably faster.
Cheers Old-Guy though not applicable as brand new Bosch battery recently installed 540Ah cranking which is more than enough to get a Xantia turning over. Thought I had mentioned this on an earlier thread to this post. Maybe not!
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent Roger, I now see :) The fact it immediately fires and then stalls rules out glowplugs and compression issues :-D

I think your Bosch man is frying up a few red herrings for you there, the idle speed and anti-stall rarely needs adjusting unless the pump has been rebuilt and it can be tested easily...

Wen running and still coldish, note the natural idle speed. What is it? Should be about 950 rpm. Snap open the throttle and let it snap back very sharply. The engine speed might dip a little but it should not drop much below 900 rpm and quickly recover. If that's good then theres nothing wrong with your anti-stall. It's not to stop cold stalling as if the adjustment is wrong it would tend to stall every time you released the throttle quickly.

If your natural idle is too low then it might have a tendency to stall when very cold and again this can be tested very easily: when doing a first cold start gently rest your foot on the throttle and depress it enough to make the engine run at 1100 or 1200 rpm. Go for a start. Does it stall now?

The cold start lever is only doing just what you've just done there in that test. Both the throttle and cold start lever both act on the same component in the pump.

If the engine still stalls then the problem is with fuel supply. Does it help it not stalling if you pump the primer bulb before trying to start? It could be that you do have a small air leak that's causing fuel to drain back to the tank.
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Re: Xantia Cold Start - Stalling on first start up.

Post by Old-Guy »

Thinking back, when I was fitting the new battery (in a nice warm workshop), I took the opportunity to finish the job of replacing the leak-off pipes. This might also have improved matters. But the Varta definitely cranks the engine faster.
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