ZX: stick, deal or cash in?

[Peter.N.]

But if its at the same revs in both gears it points to something resonating on the engine, possibly a worn mounting?

Peter

[MPV]

One of my cars has knackered diff bearings, I've driven over 1500 miles in it since the noise first started and the sound and feel hasn't got any worse. I'll run it till it falls to bits as it's got tax and MOT.

I've now racked up 3000 miles like this since April, mainly motorway miles at a steady 60mph and it's no worse. Are the symptoms I'm describing what you're having with your car?


I guess the elephant in the room is the clutch wear, which the adjustment takes care of for now. When this goes, the issue is then forced. As you say, it could take a long time for this to happen, so I might as well keep on running it. It'll give me more time to save up. Who knows, something else could happen before then.

The whole thing is just a blasted nuisance![/quote]

My car it does it the same in all gears as it's the diff that's packing up. I had an old car once where the synchro had gone in 1st and 3rd. Drove it for about 10,000 miles on two gears till I got round to sorting it. I'm sure you can get it fixed fairly cheaply, just a matter of going to a scrappy and finding a reasonable garage. New clutch kits are not that expensive. Don't forget you can run your lovely XUD on veg oil and save money that way!!! The car will pay for itself pretty quickly if you're not doing that already.

[the_weaver]

Are you sure it's not one of the recon driveshafts that's causing the problem? The noise starts after the recon diveshafts were fitted - that could point to the driveshaft itself. A "humming vibration" could be a driveshaft. I've had that myself. A vibration that you can feel through your heel, or through the floor, could be a driveshaft. I've had that too.

I know the driveshafts should be good, but the driveshaft gaiters must be airtight for them to work properly. Mechanics tend to be heavy-handed. Anything made from rubber is vulnerable to damage when fitting. Mechanics have to grab hold of the driveshafts and man-handle them into place. It's very easy to grab the rubber gaiter and squeeze it against some metal part, and split the gaiter.

Once the airtight seal is gone, it's only a matter of time before the driveshaft starts making a noise. Air contains water vapour, which can get into the gaiter through the smallest leak. Once inside, the water will condense out onto the cold metal surface of the driveshaft CV joint. The water will dilute the grease into an oil-like liquid. This liquid makes metal parts rust. The liquid will eventually be washed out, and replaced by (dirty) water. There's usually a delay between fitting a driveshaft with an air leak, and hearing noises. The delay could be a few days, or a few weeks. It's the time it takes for the grease to be diluted by water and washed out.

Have you got the driveshafts with the inner gaiter attached to a metal can? That metal can can be tricky to get right. I had a garage fit new gaiters, and a few weeks after the driveshaft went noisy. The metal can was sliding backwards and forwards by about 1 mm, and not airtight. The edge of the can has be hammered over the edge of the driveshaft body and it's easy to get it wrong.

I would inspect the driveshafts for holes etc and give the rubber gaiters a gentle squeeze, to check they're airtight. Don't do it too hard through in case you burst them.

Paul

[Chris570]

as above i had a friend of mine have a very strange set of noises come from his gearbox, which we initially thought was duff wheel bearings, then diff and in the end it turned out to be a duff shaft which we dismissed early on as it was new. (After changing the gearbox we discovered it was the shaft, not happy)

This was on a 106 with an MA box but the principle still holds good.

with the milage on your car i would amazed if it was anything along the lines of diff because as said these boxes are built like brick outhouses

[geb042]

Thanks for the additional suggestions re. the driveshafts.

When I get the time, I'll get down underneath and have a look. Am I just looking for splits in the rubber boots, or misalignment of the sealing ties at either end? The driveshafts were fitted in the middle of the dry spell of good weather we had in late March and through April, so there may not have been any water incress, save for washing the car.

Yes, from memory the inner end of the shaft has quite a weighty-looking cylinder shape on in near the inner joint.

Yes, the vibration only started with the recon shafts being fitted and is a reasonance-type noise. Garage said all engine/gearbox mounts are ok though. Garage says it's certain the problem's the diff bearings for what they're worth.

The other issue is the exarcerbation of the knarly rumbling noise when the engine is labouring. It's just as if a mounting has gone, but I'm told it hasn't. Surely someone with a diesel ZX or 306 knows what this sounds like?

Driveshafts would be an easier fix that the 'box, but I haven't got the appetite for going over all of this again. I think if I did, I'd be tempted by the genuine items this time, though at £360 a pop it's a lot of money to test a theory. Either way, I wouldn't want to have AMK driveshafts fitted again.

Maybe my best bet's to carry on using it as normal (did 200 miles in in this weekend with no problems) until the clutch packs in. When it does, I'll just tell whoever's doing it to take a look at the diff whilst the gearbox is off. If they can see it's worn then I can make my big decision then. If there's nothing wrong with it, I'll just have to thrown on a new set of driveshafts for good measure and hope!

[Peter.N.]

I think I would be inclined to fit a secondhand pair of shafts.

Peter

[the_weaver]

The first thing to do is to gently squeeze each gaiter. Don't squeeze too hard, as you can burst them, although that usually only happens when they're old anyway. You should feel resistance if it's airtight. If it feels dead or empty then it might be leaking. Do a visual inspection looking for holes and cuts in the rubber. Have a look for cuts where the metal bands are. Sometimes over-tightening the bands can cause cuts. Most bands are a bit mis-aligned but they should be ok provided they're not too extreme. Look for grease on the gaiters which might be due to leaks.

Do the inner gaiters disappear into the metal can with no metal fixing band visible? If so, then it's the type I'm thinking about with the metal can. In this case, test if the can is secure, by trying to slide it horizontally a couple of millimeters. Try to slide it along the direction of the driveshaft, from gearbox to roadwheel.

Did your clutch adjust itself? This happened to me when I took my car to a garage. They bent something. I think it was a sleeve. Maybe a sleeve on the clutch cable, where it goes through the bulkhead, or at the gearbox end. The feel of the clutch pedal changed completely, and first and second gears were crashing.

Gsfcarparts probably have cheap prices for recon driveshafts. I think Citroen main dealers may also sell recon driveshafts themselves.

Paul

[MPV]

I'd get a second opinion about the diff, if it's gone, it should be the same in all gears and even when you are coasting you should hear something.

[the_weaver]

One more thought. If you've got the driveshafts with gaiters, then one driveshaft has a spring in it and the other one doesn't. I think the spring is to hold the driveshaft against the gearbox. It's probably the short driveshaft that's got the spring. Some gaiter kits have new springs, some don't. I wonder what would happen if the spring was left out? That might produce some noise.

I've got a 1993 ZX 1.9D with 220 K miles on it. I'm keeping it for as long as possible. If I had a car with 50 K miles on it I'd certainly want to keep it. No modern car can match the ZX. They're super-tough, long lived, reliable. I would advise you to keep the car.

Paul

[Xsarahdi]

No modern car can match the ZX. They're super-tough, long lived, reliable. I would advise you to keep the car.

Can't agree more. Ours just went through the MOT today and it passed with only an advisory about a tyre. The guy commented on what a solid car it was and he said he doesn't see many cars of that age with no corrosion and in perfect mechanical order.

[the_weaver]

Some more thoughts.

One thing that changed when the driveshafts were replaced is the gearbox oil. Did they use the right oil? Did they fill it to the right level? Are Citroen gearboxes fussy about the oil they use? I know some people say things like ".. always use XYZ brand of oil, or you'll get sticky synchros, and your gears will crash in first and second". It was probably said about Ford's in the 1980's, but it's the sort of thing that you do hear in internet forums. The oil will have changed though, and most garages will use whatever brand of oil the local motor factor has. Maybe the gearbox had the original Citroen specified oil in it to start with, and now it's got some cheap oil, which it doesn't like. If there was a noise in the gearbox before, maybe thick oil masked the noise, and now thinner oil makes the sound loud enough to hear.

You say you had oil leaks after the driveshafts were changed. I've had that as well. In my case, it wasn't from the driveshaft seals, but from elsewhere around the gearbox. The problem I found, is that the mechanics "bung a litre of oil in". I've actually heard them use that expression. What they're supposed to do, is to refill, using a bottle with a tube, to a level just above the filler hole, and then wait for the level to go down to the bottom of the filler hole. This operation takes time, which garages haven't got, so they "bung a litre in". In my experience, a litre of oil is too much, following a driveshaft removal. I had oil leaks for ages after my driveshaft gaiters were done. It was coming out from strange places fairly high up on the gearbox, maybe the speedo drive, or gear linkage area. I would think that a high level of oil would put more pressure on seals. Maybe that's why your seals leaked.

On the long driveshaft there's an intermediate bearing. I think it's held in a holder maybe with two bolts. It might be worth inspecting the area to see if the bolts holding it are tight. If it was rotating against the bearing holder, then it might make a noise. If it's not located properly then maybe it's not supporting the long driveshaft in the middle, which might cause a resonance.

There's one test you can do for driveshafts, which is to drive around in circles, in an empty carpark, with the steering on full lock. Do clockwise circles, then anticlockwise. Slowly in first gear is enough. Listen for noises from the driveshafts. Bad driveshafts will usually make metallic clinking sounds. This is a good test for the outer CV joint. You can usually hear which side the noise is coming from. I used this test on my ZX and diagnosed a noise down to a particular gaiter. When I opened the gaiter, the grease has turned to "oil" and gushed out. I refilled with proper grease and the driveshaft then became quiet. Inner CV joints usually make rumbling sounds when driving on straight roads.

Paul

[geb042]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. You've certainly got be doubting the garages diagnosis. You've also succeeded in making me feel good enough about owning a diesel ZX to decide that it's probably a better bet to keep it!

First, a couple of points in response to that's be said the the last few posts:

1. Weather-permitting, I'll take a look at the shafts this weekend and try to take some pictures to post here. Both shafts were new reconditioned units manufactured by AMK. Noise was like this straight from fitting back in April, so whether it's caused by damage caused by ingress is doubtful.

2. The gearbox oil leak began when the new n/s shaft was fitted. The cause was due to the reconditioned shaft circumference not being true and forming a seal against the gearbox seal. A replacement shaft stopped the leak. There is no oil leaks from anywhere on the car.

2. I provided the garage with new, genuine Citroen driveshaft oil seals each time a shaft was fitted. I also supplied the garage with 2 litres of Total BV75/80 gearbox oil and insisted it be used to refill the gearbox on each occasion - this is the correct type and amount of oil for the gearbox.

3. The noise only happens when the car in in drive (i.e. when the clutch is up and the car is moving in gear. It does not happen when the car is coasting out of gear. Would knackered diff bearings still be make a noise and vibration of the car was coasting out of gear??? I thought the diff only came in when the car was in gear?

4. The clutch cable is the manually adjusting type. The garage tightened it up by about 0.9cm of thread last week.

If money were no object, then I'd go to Citroen and get two new shafts at a total cost of £720 + the cost of fitting, which would turn into an £850 job. This is a lot of money to spend on an 'experiment' to see if it's the shafts. As for new shafts from GKN, they don't supply them new for this car anymore (if someone knows who does then let me know). Citroen do do recon shafts, but to be honest I would steer well clear of recon shafts now no matter who 'makes' them. They're more potential hassle than they're literally worth.

If it is the shaft, will it damage any other part of the car? If not, then I'll carry on using the car until the clutch goes, then tell a garage (not the one I've been to!) of the background to this and insist that they check the 'shafts or (if possible without complete disassembly) examine the gearbox before refitting. I coud just take the chance then and get the two new 'shafts fitted then and hope for the best.

[Peter.N.]

Personally I would fit a pair of secondhand ones, if they were OK in the car they came out of and the chances are they were, they are well tested and very much cheaper than new ones. I have never fitted a brand new driveshaft in my life and never had any trouble with secondhand ones.

Peter

[the_weaver]

Gsfcarparts used to advertise exchange reconditioned driveshafts in their catalogue. These were reconditioned by GKN. I don't think you'd have any trouble with driveshafts reconditioned by the makers themselves. Gsf probably still sell these. There are also lots of secondhand driveshafts on ebay going for thirty to forty pounds. You could buy one of these, and get somebody from the forum to fit it, as a test. As you've had the nearside driveshaft replaced under warranty already, then I would suggest it might be the other one that's making the noise, if it is a driveshaft problem. As the ends of the driveshafts are in the differential, would a driveshaft with a worn end cause the differential to make noises? Maybe there's a loose fit between the teeth of the driveshaft, and the teeth of the differential, and they're knocking together. You might be able to feel play if you turn the driveshaft with your hand gently against the differential gear. Compare each side, to see if it's worse on one side. There's always going to be some play anyway, but you'll have to judge of it feels excessive.

There are two types of driveshafts used on the ZX. I think that GKN probably make the one with the metal can on the inner CV joint. These driveshafts usually have a groove in the end, and a hub nut that you stake into the groove, with a hammer and chisel or punch. Is this the type you've got? There's also another type of driveshaft which probably doesn't have the metal can, and has a hole in the end for locking the nut, using an "R" clip and cover. When you swapped your driveshafts for the reconditioned ones, did you change over from the staked type, to the other type, or vice versa? I'm wondering whether your differential is happy with one type, but doesn't like the other type? Maybe it's a difference in tolerances or something.

Another thing to check for, is whether the outer gaiter is touching anything stationary, as it goes around. I've seen some driveshafts getting very close to things like the locking plate for the Bendix brake calipers. The locking plate is shaped to provide clearance. Is it fitted properly? Some types of driveshafts are very slimline, whilst other types are fatter. If your changed your driveshafts then maybe you changed a slim design for a fatter one. I once fitted a universal gaiter which kept coming off. It was touching the locking plate, when you turned the steering to full lock. Are the metal bands slim enough or is there a tie-wrap that's touching something? I was wondering whether the GKN driveshafts are used in conjunction with Bendix brakes, as I've always seen them in that combination.

Paul

[geb042]

Finally managed to get some pictures of the driveshaft gearbox ends posted on here for comment on whether the right type has been used.