Contemplating a Xantia

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
bxzx16v
Posts: 1696
Joined: 29 May 2011, 22:11
Location: Sheffield
My Cars: Past Frenchies , 4xBx16v,1xBxGti,1xBxTzd,2xZx Volcanes,1xZx reflex,1xPug 405mi16, 3x Xantia 1.9td's,1x Xantia activa, 2x Renault 25 V6 turbo, 1 Zx16v ,1 Pug 406 V6 coupe ,1x C8 , 1x Berlingo van , 1x Xanti 2.1td , 1x Renault Laguna 3
x 35

Post by bxzx16v »

Previously had a few Xantia 1.9td's which were faultless , one of them though was way more responsive than the others for some reason . I also ran a 2.1td alongside a 1.9td for a few years and had no pump problems of any kind . The 2.1's performance was in a different league to the 1.9 ( even the quicker one) not taking anything away from the 1.9 but the 2.1 is IMO a better drive alround , as for the 110hdi in the xantia I can't comment as I have never drove one but have a 2006 (old shape) dispatch with it in and it's superb , flexible , quick and economical , I did have a C5 with the 110hdi 8v in and that was dull , in a Xantia I would imagine quite a nice drive . Hdi for me , but they are all good in my book :D

Mark
User avatar
Spaces
Posts: 186
Joined: 16 Mar 2011, 10:42
Location: Rarely in one place for too long - Hebridean Islands and Yorkshire are my favourites
My Cars:

Post by Spaces »

DickieG wrote: That's only if you can be bothered with the hassle of running on veg which apparently causes the fuel pipes to deteriorate, the necessary additional fuel filter changes and strain on the pump/timing belt. For me all that's a no brainer, but each to their own.
Dickie, I think perhaps you're a little confused?

Biodiesel is the big solvent and attacks 'rubber' pipes relatively aggressively - the leak off pipes are the first to go. Veg oil is relatively benign and has none of the many chemicals added to forecourt diesel - which damage human beings, if not cars. Biodiesel is added to forecourt diesel, there isn't any in vegetable oils.

I've run old German cars on vegetable oils before (for tens of thousands of miles) and if it is clean and dry, thinned with heat before the filter and the tank strainer is clean, there is no problem. There should be no need for additional fuel filter changes either - if the oil is clean and dry. The biggest surprise was how much better the engines ran, cambelts showed no signs of wearing faster, no leaks appeared and after a few thousand miles I borrowed a friend's fibre-optic scope and was amazed at how clean the combustion chambers were.

What is even more amazing was the reaction of others when they found out you didn't run on a government approved fuel - from disbelief to the idea you were some form of criminal and from hysterics to failing to believe the engine wouldn't go wrong. The change in character of the British from an outward-going, exploratory sort who could think clearly and weigh up danger for themselves to a nanny-state-fearing risk-averse lot is spectacular! Any car without airbags is seen as akin to taking your life in your hands... regardless of cheap brake materials, cheap tyres, prolonged service intervals et al.

Those who experience problems with plant oil fuels are either trying to use it in unsuitable engines or are using poor quality oil. Or their car has air leaks in the fuel lines, with the typical worm-drive clips in evidence as used by many amateur mechanics and garages.

As for hassle/no-brainer, that's fine Dickie. The fewer people who wish to run on free or nearly-free fuel, the better. That means a better, cheaper supply for those in the know... it's all a bit like the typical British approach to hydraulic Citroens - most think they're wallowing, complex, nasty machines which use a weird, outdated technology. Xantias and C5s are just about accepted by my MoT garage since they know they're basically Peugeots in disguise, as for CXs and the rest - they regard them with as much mirth as having recycled cooking oil in your fuel tank.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:I've owned 3 NA 205Ds and was able to get over 100mph out of them.
What relevance does that have to the debate?
You asked if I've driven NA diesels...
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:I simply do not recognise the comments you've made about the 1.9TD Richard, that's all, Cassy and Jenny pull all the way to the red line in all bar 5th where she maxed out at 115 (on veg, on diesel she would only do 110), similarly with the comments about needing to change through the gears all the time, or not be able to pull in 2nd.
The 1.9TD engine and gearbox handles like no other diesel that I've driven of it's time, or since, so yes driving style and knowing how to drive it does come into it. I've seen people who've driven XUDs for 20 years and still get it wrong so please don't think I was having a pop or insulting you by my comments.I've seen people who've driven XUDs for 20 years and still get it wrong so please don't think I was having a pop or insulting you by my comments.
I'm interested in what makes you think that XUD's produce more power when running on veg compared to diesel as according to all the research I've done the cetane value of veg/rapeseed oil at best only matches diesel and due to its thicker viscosity it does not atomise as well which if anything leads to a loss of power and places additional strain on the pump.
Veg has better lubricating properties which can counter the slight loss in energy density.
When it's hot (ie your engine is warmed up) it has a similar viscosity to diesel and atomises just as well.
DickieG wrote: How would you describe the correct or wrong way of driving an XUD? Seriously, I'm interested to know your thoughts. No offence taken by me, its all part of the debate :D
Drive 'em 'ard and not like a diesel :). It can pootle, as I've said I mostly just stroll along in 5th, only changing gears to slow down so I don't have to stop at lights etc, or when I stop.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:I've never denied what you've said about the 110's properties so I'm a tad confused why you felt you needed to say my head is in the sand over it :(
You appear to be a lone figure when it comes in accepting that a 110 is significantly quicker and more flexible than an XUD 90, almost as if you're in a state of denial about something you've not even experienced.
Where have I denied that the 110 is quicker or more flexible? I'm denying that the 90XUD is slow and "flat as a slug"
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:You're the one who's claimed the 1.9TD is flat and slow (something I've never experienced). Now if you actually meant "When compared with the 110" fair enough, assuming the 110 is actually nothing like Dex or the 90hdi, I don't have a problem with that, but it'd be like me saying "the 110 is slow and flat" when I meant "compared to my 130hp megane"
Yes that's exactly what I mean as below 1900 rpm the XUD is off boost and flat resulting in a useable rev range of just 2100 compared with the 110 having no noticeable turbo lag unless below 1000 rpm giving a useable range of 3000 rpm, XUD's go OK once there are spinning beyond 1900 rpm but are as flat as a pancake below that hence more gear changing required with them. If you're saying that your Xantia's are apparently different to all the ones I've experienced (I can count at least eight for sure) you'll have to let me and others in on on the secret.
So you are driving them wrong ;)
DickieG wrote: I can only think that you're being confused by the additional noise created by the necessarily higher revved XUD giving you the impression of them being far quicker than they actually are. By comparison a RR Ghost is dead silent at any speed, its only when you look at the speedo/notice the speed you are rushing past things that you realise just how blisteringly quick they are unless the accelerator is floored and you are literally pinned back in your seat. The only Xantia I would describe as 'brisk' is a V6.
Urgh, one thing I can't stand is quiet cars. The roar of the XUD is just lovely, I don't know why anyone would want a car where they can't hear the engine singing.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Either way, when it comes to economy the 110 cannot compare with the 1.9TD (well maybe for a few miles before the pump gums up)
That's only if you can be bothered with the hassle of running on veg which apparently causes the fuel pipes to deteriorate, the necessary additional fuel filter changes and strain on the pump/timing belt. For me all that's a no brainer, but each to their own.
What hassle? I pour veg in, the car runs. Less hassle than the petrol station, no splashback, no diesel on my hands or clothes, no queuing, I can fill up where I like and when I like, and save a hell of a lot of money.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

Spaces wrote:
DickieG wrote: That's only if you can be bothered with the hassle of running on veg which apparently causes the fuel pipes to deteriorate, the necessary additional fuel filter changes and strain on the pump/timing belt. For me all that's a no brainer, but each to their own.
Dickie, I think perhaps you're a little confused?
Am I? I base my opinion on the numerous reports I've read on this very forum about the deterioration of fuel piping on Citroens and problems around pump seals requiring replacement due to using veg. Indeed I recall all too well seeing Xac's car at Jim's having the pump swapped over which IIRC was down to running on veg.
Spaces wrote:Biodiesel is the big solvent and attacks 'rubber' pipes relatively aggressively - the leak off pipes are the first to go. Veg oil is relatively benign and has none of the many chemicals added to forecourt diesel - which damage human beings, if not cars. Biodiesel is added to forecourt diesel, there isn't any in vegetable oils.
Bio in diesel is very well publicised and hardly news.
Spaces wrote:I've run old German cars on vegetable oils before (for tens of thousands of miles) and if it is clean and dry, thinned with heat before the filter and the tank strainer is clean, there is no problem. There should be no need for additional fuel filter changes either - if the oil is clean and dry.
This forum is not about German car's which may well have rubber fuel line components made out of a different materials from French car's. As for going through the hassle of fitting additional heaters just to save a couple of quid, well I'm not so hard up that I need to fit all that paraphernalia to my car. On the filter issue your comment goes against what I've read here about running on veg, IIRC those running on veg state that its a very good idea to keep a spare fuel filter with you at all times,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I prefer to set off on a journey in a car not requiring me to carry spares :wink:
Spaces wrote:The biggest surprise was how much better the engines ran, cambelts showed no signs of wearing faster, no leaks appeared and after a few thousand miles I borrowed a friend's fibre-optic scope and was amazed at how clean the combustion chambers were.
As I mentioned in my previous thread the cetane value of veg is at best equal to diesel etc so I'm so wondering whether your thoughts are subject to the placebo effect.
Spaces wrote:What is even more amazing was the reaction of others when they found out you didn't run on a government approved fuel - from disbelief to the idea you were some form of criminal and from hysterics to failing to believe the engine wouldn't go wrong.
That may apply to some people but I have a reasonable knowledge of the law which I may even be so bold to say is in excess of the "average person on top of the number 29 London Omnibus," work that quote out and you'll discover the basis for my knowledge of the law.
Spaces wrote:The change in character of the British from an outward-going, exploratory sort who could think clearly and weigh up danger for themselves to a nanny-state-fearing risk-averse lot is spectacular! Any car without airbags is seen as akin to taking your life in your hands... regardless of cheap brake materials, cheap tyres, prolonged service intervals et al.
After the earlier thread was closed I think its best leave the airbag debate alone, you're certainly wasting your keyboard time trying to convince me on that! However your argument of cheap brake materials etc, apologies now but I'm falling asleep,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Spaces wrote:Those who experience problems with plant oil fuels are either trying to use it in unsuitable engines or are using poor quality oil. Or their car has air leaks in the fuel lines, with the typical worm-drive clips in evidence as used by many amateur mechanics and garages.

As for hassle/no-brainer, that's fine Dickie. The fewer people who wish to run on free or nearly-free fuel, the better. That means a better, cheaper supply for those in the know... it's all a bit like the typical British approach to hydraulic Citroëns - most think they're wallowing, complex, nasty machines which use a weird, outdated technology. Xantias and C5s are just about accepted by my MoT garage since they know they're basically Peugeots in disguise, as for CXs and the rest - they regard them with as much mirth as having recycled cooking oil in your fuel tank.
Are you suggesting that I don't know what using veg involves due to a lack of knowledge? :lol: If so try another angle as I know very well the implications of using veg, for me the cost savings are far outweighed by the hassle factor, especially when I have an HDi which is very economical and is far more flexible in the driving experience. I have a choice based upon knowledge and experience of running comparable cars back to back several times over and have made my choice, end of debate.
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

The seals needing replacing is due to age not veg eating away at them :D

The veg doesn't eat away at them, it just exposes the cracks that are already there and widens them when left long enough to polymerise.
My fuel lines are still as supple as they were when I first got Cassy.
The savings on just one tank of veg is enough to buy a replacement pump and new seals to refurbish it at your leisure and fit when needed.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

Xac wrote:You asked if I've driven NA diesels...
Xantia's,,,,,,,,,
Xac wrote:Drive 'em 'ard and not like a diesel :). It can pootle, as I've said I mostly just stroll along in 5th, only changing gears to slow down so I don't have to stop at lights etc, or when I stop.
Oh I see you need to thrash them to get any resemblance of performance, which involves lots of unnecessary gear changing, if only the engine had the power of a *** then those changes wouldn't be necessary,,,,,,,,,,,,,,If the power is there then compromises aren't required.
Xac wrote:I'm denying that the 90XUD is slow and "flat as a slug"
You know my thoughts on that, dare I mention large birds? :lol:
Xac wrote:So you are driving them wrong ;)
If you mean I'm driving with respect for the machinery and refinement then yes I must be. Hmmm,,,
Xac wrote:Urgh, one thing I can't stand is quiet cars. The roar of the XUD is just lovely, I don't know why anyone would want a car where they can't hear the engine singing.
Err refinement, try it, its very relaxing and assists the comfort and driving experience. Of course if you like a noisy car I take it you have removed all of the sound proofing? If not I'll do for you tomorrow but only if you promise to leave it in my car :lol:
Xac wrote:What hassle? I pour veg in, the car runs. Less hassle than the petrol station, no splashback, no diesel on my hands or clothes, no queuing, I can fill up where I like and when I like, and save a hell of a lot of money.
The hassle of having to make specific journeys to collect it, of course there are never queues at the checkout in Costco's or other supermarkets :roll: Oh and what are those stains down the side of a veg run car? Splashback? Do you not know how to use a fuel pump? :lol:

The small savings you quote are nowhere near enough to interest me when the whole driving experience is taken into consideration, some things are worth the little extra expenditure :wink:
Xac wrote:The seals needing replacing is due to age not veg eating away at them :D

The veg doesn't eat away at them, it just exposes the cracks that are already there and widens them when left long enough to polymerise.
So that has nothing to do with using veg? I must be missing something :?
Xac wrote:The savings on just one tank of veg is enough to buy a replacement pump
So people pay you to put veg in your tank, where are these people give me their number, I can now see why you use veg if someone's paying you a couple of hundred pounds per tank to use it. Selfish Git, you've kept that to yourself :lol:
Xac wrote:and new seals to refurbish it at your leisure and fit when needed.
Why would I want to pull a diesel pump apart? Have you nothing else in your life? I need to have a word with your intended Danielle, make sure she's at the DSM tomorrow :wink: After I've spoken to her you may find it advisable to slide a large book down the back of your trousers :dom:
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

2000-3000rpm is not thrashing anything Richard, you must know that?
If you drove them properly you'd change gears at the right time (and no you don't have to change often for this) and not have a problem.
You're the one who's sticking their head in the sand, or your fingers in your ears saying "lalalala I can't hear you"
Drive the 1.9TD properly which doesn't mean thrashing it (but you can, as it's bomb proof) and you'd see.
Cut out wind noise yes, I'd say that were an improvement, but I personally don't like quiet engines, it's one of the things I dislike about petrols.
Veg can be delivered. I'm sure if you try hard enough you can find someone willing to deliver diesel to your door, but at a premium.
Small savings? You need a new abacus Richard ;)
Passed a petrol station today, diesel was over 45% more expensive than what I pay for veg. I spoke with Dave the rave today and he showed me his veg loving CX, we worked his out to be about 1p per mile compared to your 12ppm.
Replacement pump is about £20, new seals about £10, don't know where you get this "paid a couple of hundred pounds" from, don't mix your pain killers with shandy :)

Alas we won't be there tomorrow, Danielle wants to go to her late nan's church in the morning, and we're spending the day with her family.
Have a great time, hope the weather turns out as good as it was today!
Drive safe :)

PS Just thought, it's a good job Danielle won't be there, after you've been dissin' Cassy you'd be in need of backside protection! :D
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

If an engine has an effective working range of only 1,000 rpm between 2-3K then sorry Xac in my books that's a very inflexible engine which requires numerous gear changes in order to simply keep up with the traffic flow. That is nothing to do with driving style and illustrates my point of the XUD being flat below 1900 which by your very description above you must now agree to be the case. Hence the problem with pulling away at low speeds I mentioned 25 posts ago :roll:

Quite how you think I'm sticking my head in the sand when I presently own both versions mentioned (plus several others previously) and I'm simply recounting my own experiences of them as a comparison (in the case of the XUD 1.9 TD over 16 year period) sorry but you've lost me. How far have you driven an HDi 110?

I cannot for the life of me see the benefit in having to constantly make so many gear changes just to keep an engine on the boil, to do so is just like driving an HGV, which incidentally I do as well :lol: Maybe you should invest in one of those as their engines can be rather vocal and you can then enjoy changing gear every 500 rpm just to stay in the "green zone".

As for savings, with your quoted diesel price of 1.39 (its 1.35ppl round my way) costs £83.40 per 60 litres, Costco are presently charging 0.99 per litre for veg which equates to £59.40 for 60 litres.

On the subject of maths don't bother with an abacus, you clearly need a far more accurate up to date all singing and dancing calculator as the 555 miles you'll do in an XUD on 60 litres @ 42 mpg @ 0.99ppl equates to 10.70 ppm. An HDi will do 700 miles on 60 litres of diesel @ 1.39ppl @ 53mpg which equates to 11.91ppm which in my books makes an HDi just 1.21ppm more expensive than an XUD running on veg. Good heavens is that money well spent to have more refined and flexible engine!

I think you and Dave must be suffering from chip fat fumes to state that "he showed me his veg loving CX, we worked his out to be about 1p per mile compared to your 12ppm"

As I mentioned above I've got far too many better things to do with my time than to mess about with diesel pumps, why should anyone want to do that for 1.21ppm = £144 per 12,000 miles less the cost of buying spare pumps and seals. Are times really that bad? They aren't for me.

If I've got my sums wrong then please let me know! :lol:
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
User avatar
Spaces
Posts: 186
Joined: 16 Mar 2011, 10:42
Location: Rarely in one place for too long - Hebridean Islands and Yorkshire are my favourites
My Cars:

Post by Spaces »

Oops, obviously touched a bit of a sore point here... sorry to have energised you so much Dickie, but I repeat - whatever stories you have read of Citroen/Peugeot owners having trouble with plant oils as fuel - it really does sound as if you're confused. But as you say, end of - if you wish.
PeterN: "Honest John's forum put the last nail in the coffin of owning a 2000- car. Many were still servicable, but CR, DMFs and needing fault codes read because your horn doesn't work - no thanks. All my life I have generally understood cars - until now."
addo
Sara Watson's Stalker
Posts: 7098
Joined: 19 Aug 2008, 12:38
Location: NEW South Wales, Australia. I'll show you "Far, far away" ;-)
My Cars: Peugeot 605
Citroën Berlingo
Alfa 147
x 93

Post by addo »

I'm trying to put enjoyment back into the original issue!

If you're not enjoying a rather special car - you're better off with a bland "tin box" (to quote HM).
User avatar
myglaren
Forum Admin Team
Posts: 25362
Joined: 02 Mar 2008, 13:30
Location: Washington
My Cars: Mazda 6
Ooops.
Previously:
2009 Honda Civic :(
C5, C5, Xantia, BX, GS, Visa.
R4, R11TXE, R14, R30TX
x 4888

Post by myglaren »

addo wrote:I'm trying to put enjoyment back into the original issue!

If you're not enjoying a rather special car - you're better off with a bland "tin box" (to quote HM).
Hey, I like my tin box (sometimes, anyway :) )
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:If an engine has an effective working range of only 1,000 rpm between 2-3K then sorry Xac in my books that's a very inflexible engine which requires numerous gear changes in order to simply keep up with the traffic flow. That is nothing to do with driving style and illustrates my point of the XUD being flat below 1900 which by your very description above you must now agree to be the case. Hence the problem with pulling away at low speeds I mentioned 25 posts ago :roll:

Quite how you think I'm sticking my head in the sand when I presently own both versions mentioned (plus several others previously) and I'm simply recounting my own experiences of them as a comparison (in the case of the XUD 1.9 TD over 16 year period) sorry but you've lost me. How far have you driven an HDi 110?

I cannot for the life of me see the benefit in having to constantly make so many gear changes just to keep an engine on the boil, to do so is just like driving an HGV, which incidentally I do as well :lol: Maybe you should invest in one of those as their engines can be rather vocal and you can then enjoy changing gear every 500 rpm just to stay in the "green zone".

As for savings, with your quoted diesel price of 1.39 (its 1.35ppl round my way) costs £83.40 per 60 litres, Costco are presently charging 0.99 per litre for veg which equates to £59.40 for 60 litres.

On the subject of maths don't bother with an abacus, you clearly need a far more accurate up to date all singing and dancing calculator as the 555 miles you'll do in an XUD on 60 litres @ 42 mpg @ 0.99ppl equates to 10.70 ppm. An HDi will do 700 miles on 60 litres of diesel @ 1.39ppl @ 53mpg which equates to 11.91ppm which in my books makes an HDi just 1.21ppm more expensive than an XUD running on veg. Good heavens is that money well spent to have more refined and flexible engine!

I think you and Dave must be suffering from chip fat fumes to state that "he showed me his veg loving CX, we worked his out to be about 1p per mile compared to your 12ppm"

As I mentioned above I've got far too many better things to do with my time than to mess about with diesel pumps, why should anyone want to do that for 1.21ppm = £144 per 12,000 miles less the cost of buying spare pumps and seals. Are times really that bad? They aren't for me.

If I've got my sums wrong then please let me know! :lol:
If you think the XUD only has a working range up to 3000rpm Richard, then you really haven't been driving yours properly, they pull comfortably all the way to the red line if you so wish without over stressing the engine.
Thinking about it, was it you who claimed that the XUD has nothing over 3000rpm?
Cassy gets 45mpg, even with a car load of adults, a dog, and a roofbox she manages 42mpg. Hence 10ppm.
Diesel up here is £1.45, £87 for 60L, and with your stated mpg works out at 12.4ppm, so nearly 25% more expensive.
Dave gets 20L for £2, ie a 10th the price of what I pay for SVO, so if I used the same it would be 1ppm compared with your 12.4ppm. Still if you want to believe cutting your fuel bill by 92% isn't a big saving, then I'll help you dig that hole in the sand for your head ;)

As for pulling away, seriously? If you're in 1st for more than 2 seconds you're doing it wrong, as I said 1st for me is too low, 2nd should be a bit lower and become 1st, there's plenty of grunt to cope with that. It gets up to 2000rpm so easily, I've never lacked power pulling out, flick it into 2nd and you're away, then if you're in a 30mph zone and things are clear, pop it into 5th and relax.
Surely you're not telling us you pull away from stationary in 2nd Richard? That can't be good for the gearbox. I thought you weren't into stressing things? :)

If you don't want to tinker with cars, stick with your BMW (oh wait...) or a Corsa. You don't buy old French cars and expect they don't need tinkering :D

But hey, at least you've now admitted that the XUD is more economical than the 110hdi. Incidently, how much is a replacement lift pump?
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

addo wrote:I'm trying to put enjoyment back into the original issue!

If you're not enjoying a rather special car - you're better off with a bland "tin box" (to quote HM).
TBH I do enjoy the car despite it having the turbo lag that TD's come with as standard, (with the benefit of hindsight I now wish I'd bought the Mauritius blue Activa from Citroen Chiswick I looked at just prior to buying Goldie) however if it wasn't for the fact that I've owned it from when it was just a couple of months old and that its still in such a fresh condition having only done 36,000 miles making it irreplaceable as I imagine it must be one of the best Xantia's left in the UK plus the sentimental value, I would honestly sell it. Even then given the right offer I'd still let it go, but even if its market value was say £2,000 I'd sooner hang onto it as where else could I buy any other car in such condition for that money?
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

Xac, I'd hate to play you at any sport, take football for instance, you spend so much time moving goal posts that I wouldn't have a clue as to where to shoot!!

I have based all my arguments in this debate in answer to points that you have raised, but when I respond in a way that might in any way appear to prove a point in favour of my argument you move the goal posts.

For instance; on the question of useable rev range you stated "2000-3000rpm is not thrashing anything Richard, you must know that?" to which I responded "If an engine has an effective working range of only 1,000 rpm between 2-3K then sorry Xac in my books that's a very inflexible engine which requires numerous gear changes in order to simply keep up with the traffic flow". To which you respond "then you really haven't been driving yours properly". Eh? :? You raised the point of 2-3k, not me. BTW what does a TD have to offer in the very effective 1-2K rpm range available in an HDi? Would that just so happen to be the flat area of engine performance I've been talking of right from the start?
Xac wrote:Thinking about it, was it you who claimed that the XUD has nothing over 3000rpm?
No, not me as I know that the engine power peaks @ 4,000rpm, but having said that going beyond 3,00rpm in a diesel isn't a very pleasant experience due to the thrashing noise it causes. BTW have I mentioned that HDi's have much better low down torque allowing them an additional 1,000rpm flexibility? Working from your own figures the TD has available to it 2-4,000rpm making 2,000rpm agreed? Whereas an 110 HDi has 1-4000rpm available working range making that 3,000rpm agreed? If my maths is correct that means that the HDi has available to it an additional 50% working range of useable power over and above the TD, agreed? Would that not make it a far more flexible engine?
Xac wrote:Cassy gets 45mpg, even with a car load of adults, a dog, and a roofbox she manages 42mpg.
What's happened to your driving style that's so famed on this forum? You must recall that, you know, that bloke Xac who thrashes through the MK roundabouts, wears out tyres really quickly and drives so fast that our esteemed Guru is too frightened to be a passenger in his car. Apparently you now "Mostly just pootle along in 5th gear or 4th if there is traffic". Hmmm,,,, I have a smell I recognise from Brixham harbour :roll: Has someone hijacked your forum account and I've been wasting my time replying to the wrong Xac? To get 45mpg from a TD and then 42mpg when loaded up with roofbars, adults and a dog must make you the driving economy king!! You must write a book on economy driving tips, I'll buy several copies for friends. Earlier you stated "Drive 'em 'ard and not like a diesel" Are you getting all confused with who you are and how you honestly drive?
Xac wrote:Diesel up here is £1.45
Crikey inflation must be really bad in MK, either that or you have conveniently chosen to quote the current highest price in MK for diesel as the average price there for diesel currently is 139.14ppl according to this comparison website
Xac wrote:Dave gets 20L for £2
I take it he grows/makes his own rape seed oil as you clearly cannot buy normal veg oil for 10ppl, unless of course Dave is running his car on another type of fuel.
Xac wrote: ie a 10th the price of what I pay for SVO, so if I used the same it would be 1ppm compared with your 12.4ppm.
You don't though do you, because you can't. Just like I don't claim to buy diesel for 100ppl just because I'm having a debate!
Xac wrote:Still if you want to believe cutting your fuel bill by 92% isn't a big saving, then I'll help you dig that hole in the sand for your head ;)
Please dig away, because at present you're struggling to justify saving just £144 per 12,000 miles on your precious veg and antiquated TD engine and when reality strikes you may well wish to do a 'Saddam' and live in there for a while until the dust settles :lol:
Xac wrote:As for pulling away, seriously? If you're in 1st for more than 2 seconds you're doing it wrong, as I said 1st for me is too low, 2nd should be a bit lower and become 1st, there's plenty of grunt to cope with that. It gets up to 2000rpm so easily, I've never lacked power pulling out, flick it into 2nd and you're away
Have you ever considered why Citroen felt it necessary to have such low ratio's on 1st and 2nd gear in a TD? Could it be that it has something to do with a lack of grunt below 2,000rpm, hmm, I wonder,,,,,,
Xac wrote:then if you're in a 30mph zone and things are clear, pop it into 5th and relax.
5th gear @ 30mph, enjoy driving with the engine hunting do you? What might you then need to do when you encounter a 1 in 100 uphill gradient? Oh change down a gear, or maybe two.
Xac wrote:Surely you're not telling us you pull away from stationary in 2nd Richard? That can't be good for the gearbox. I thought you weren't into stressing things? :)
When have I said that? What I have said is that due to the lack of low down torque a TD has and even with those very low gear ratios it struggles to pull away at low/slow speeds. The clue is in the word speed, speed means moving in my dictionary such as say 5+ mph. Which by the way my HDi pulls away from very well in 2nd gear, much like your Activa will also do. As you know a TD at those speeds requires you to select 1st unless you wish to wait several seconds for a TD to build up momentum. That is my point, pure and simple.
Xac wrote:If you don't want to tinker with cars, stick with your BMW (oh wait...) or a Corsa. You don't buy old French cars and expect they don't need tinkering :D
Calm down Xac, no need for that, after all I have bought a few French car's in my time but maybe the difference between you and I is that I buy car's to drive, not to constantly pull apart because they keep leaking fuel due to using veg and having to put up with an inferior driving experience all just for 1.21ppm.

Dawn's BMW has been rather efficient as it happens, but for the first time in the three or four years since we bought it I'm now having to spend some money on it, buying tyres. Now think of how much money you could have saved if only your beloved TD's were as reliable as Dawn's BMW, possibly more than 1.21ppm?
Xac wrote:But hey, at least you've now admitted that the XUD is more economical than the 110hdi.
Wey hey 1.21ppm lets go party!! :bd:
Xac wrote:Incidently, how much is a replacement lift pump?
Well looking at the same place that you will source all those spare second hand diesel pumps you said I'll need to buy if I was running on veg, i.e. say eBay, they're available for around £30-40. Which isn't that bad considering the one in my previous HDi lasted 146,328 miles and I just so happened to have one in stock that I'd bought for peanuts on an eBay auction years ago. Did the pump on your TD last as long after you started running on veg?

I've got to thank you Xac for getting me to work out that there is only 1.21ppm difference between running a HDi on freely available diesel compared with messing about veg bought at specific warehouses (where membership is necessary, collecting, filters, pumps etc) I'm now even more in love with my HDi than ever before, happy days :bl:

If times get really hard for me I only have to improve consumption to 58.71mpg to match a TD on veg (did I hear someone say I'd have to do 70+mpg? [-X ) that's easily achievable just 5mpg more, I might just have a go at that for the sheer wheeze factor, of course having an engine able to pull at such low rpm will help with this.
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:Xac, I'd hate to play you at any sport, take football for instance, you spend so much time moving goal posts that I wouldn't have a clue as to where to shoot!!

I have based all my arguments in this debate in answer to points that you have raised, but when I respond in a way that might in any way appear to prove a point in favour of my argument you move the goal posts.

For instance; on the question of useable rev range you stated "2000-3000rpm is not thrashing anything Richard, you must know that?" to which I responded "If an engine has an effective working range of only 1,000 rpm between 2-3K then sorry Xac in my books that's a very inflexible engine which requires numerous gear changes in order to simply keep up with the traffic flow". To which you respond "then you really haven't been driving yours properly". Eh? :? You raised the point of 2-3k, not me. BTW what does a TD have to offer in the very effective 1-2K rpm range available in an HDi? Would that just so happen to be the flat area of engine performance I've been talking of right from the start?
There isn't the need to drive everywhere at 1000rpm Richard, I wouldn't even do that in a hdi, and I seriously doubt you actually do either.
If what you say is true and your hdi performs like Dex, then to get anything out of it takes revving well over 3000, which gave only a few hundred rpm to actually do any overtaking with, unless you planned it really well and gave yourself a good mile to do it.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Thinking about it, was it you who claimed that the XUD has nothing over 3000rpm?
No, not me as I know that the engine power peaks @ 4,000rpm, but having said that going beyond 3,00rpm in a diesel isn't a very pleasant experience due to the thrashing noise it causes. BTW have I mentioned that HDi's have much better low down torque allowing them an additional 1,000rpm flexibility? Working from your own figures the TD has available to it 2-4,000rpm making 2,000rpm agreed? Whereas an 110 HDi has 1-4000rpm available working range making that 3,000rpm agreed? If my maths is correct that means that the HDi has available to it an additional 50% working range of useable power over and above the TD, agreed? Would that not make it a far more flexible engine?
Depends on the gearing too, and the torque, so rpm isn't as much a factor as you'd like to make out richard. Incidently, as I've stated before, Cassy pulls all the way to red line in all but 5th.
Xac wrote:Cassy gets 45mpg, even with a car load of adults, a dog, and a roofbox she manages 42mpg.
What's happened to your driving style that's so famed on this forum? You must recall that, you know, that bloke Xac who thrashes through the MK roundabouts, wears out tyres really quickly and drives so fast that our esteemed Guru is too frightened to be a passenger in his car. Apparently you now "Mostly just pootle along in 5th gear or 4th if there is traffic". Hmmm,,,, I have a smell I recognise from Brixham harbour :roll: Has someone hijacked your forum account and I've been wasting my time replying to the wrong Xac? To get 45mpg from a TD and then 42mpg when loaded up with roofbars, adults and a dog must make you the driving economy king!! You must write a book on economy driving tips, I'll buy several copies for friends. Earlier you stated "Drive 'em 'ard and not like a diesel" Are you getting all confused with who you are and how you honestly drive?
[/quote]

Nope, it demonstrates the flexibility of the vehicle Richard ;)
You can rappidly accelerate up to speed, but once there you can just pootle along gracefully and use very little fuel. On WVO that'd be a 92% fuel saving, which you seem to be ignoring.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Diesel up here is £1.45
Crikey inflation must be really bad in MK, either that or you have conveniently chosen to quote the current highest price in MK for diesel as the average price there for diesel currently is 139.14ppl according to this comparison website
Yeah if you want to run your cars on crapsco fuel be my guest.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Dave gets 20L for £2
I take it he grows/makes his own rape seed oil as you clearly cannot buy normal veg oil for 10ppl, unless of course Dave is running his car on another type of fuel.
Xac wrote: ie a 10th the price of what I pay for SVO, so if I used the same it would be 1ppm compared with your 12.4ppm.
You don't though do you, because you can't. Just like I don't claim to buy diesel for 100ppl just because I'm having a debate!
I don't be cause I make enough saving running on SVO when combined with claiming fuel back from work, however there's nothing stopping me using WVO like Dave. So again, you can't get away from that 92% cost saving can you Richard? Go on, you can do it, say "Yes, the XUD is the most economical"
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Still if you want to believe cutting your fuel bill by 92% isn't a big saving, then I'll help you dig that hole in the sand for your head ;)
Please dig away, because at present you're struggling to justify saving just £144 per 12,000 miles on your precious veg and antiquated TD engine and when reality strikes you may well wish to do a 'Saddam' and live in there for a while until the dust settles :lol:
Wow, it only costs you £150 to do 12000 miles does it? Pull the other one Richard it's got bells on it.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:As for pulling away, seriously? If you're in 1st for more than 2 seconds you're doing it wrong, as I said 1st for me is too low, 2nd should be a bit lower and become 1st, there's plenty of grunt to cope with that. It gets up to 2000rpm so easily, I've never lacked power pulling out, flick it into 2nd and you're away
Have you ever considered why Citroën felt it necessary to have such low ratio's on 1st and 2nd gear in a TD? Could it be that it has something to do with a lack of grunt below 2,000rpm, hmm, I wonder,,,,,,
Considering how low 1st is, and you can pull away reasonably well in 2nd (although I wouldn't want to all the time) I doubt that. You know Richard, with some of the questions you've been asking, I do wonder if you've actually driven all these 1.9TD that much, because from the sound of it you really don't know how to.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:then if you're in a 30mph zone and things are clear, pop it into 5th and relax.
5th gear @ 30mph, enjoy driving with the engine hunting do you? What might you then need to do when you encounter a 1 in 100 uphill gradient? Oh change down a gear, or maybe two.
Ok, that confirms it, if your XUDs were hunting at 30mph in 5th, there is something wrong with them. It may explain why you get the ECU light on when you roll down hill in gear. Your pump isn't fueling properly.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Surely you're not telling us you pull away from stationary in 2nd Richard? That can't be good for the gearbox. I thought you weren't into stressing things? :)
When have I said that? What I have said is that due to the lack of low down torque a TD has and even with those very low gear ratios it struggles to pull away at low/slow speeds. The clue is in the word speed, speed means moving in my dictionary such as say 5+ mph. Which by the way my HDi pulls away from very well in 2nd gear, much like your Activa will also do. As you know a TD at those speeds requires you to select 1st unless you wish to wait several seconds for a TD to build up momentum. That is my point, pure and simple.
Except the TD doesn't have trouble pulling away in 2nd when rolling, unless perhaps if your pump is having fueling problems, which it is sounding like yours has.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:If you don't want to tinker with cars, stick with your BMW (oh wait...) or a Corsa. You don't buy old French cars and expect they don't need tinkering :D
Calm down Xac, no need for that, after all I have bought a few French car's in my time but maybe the difference between you and I is that I buy car's to drive, not to constantly pull apart because they keep leaking fuel due to being a skinflint and having to put up with an inferior driving experience all just for 1.21ppm.
4 years I drove cassy on veg before she needed a new pump. I've had previous pumps need replacing when running on diesel.
See now your use of inferior is fine, that's a comparison, I'm not saying the TD is as good as the hdi, I'm saying it's not as bad as you're trying to make out (unless driven by someone who doesn't know how to use the engine properly).
DickieG wrote: Dawn's BMW has been rather efficient as it happens, but for the first time in the three or four years since we bought it I'm now having to spend some money on it, buying tyres. Now think of how much money you could have saved if only your beloved TD's were as reliable as Dawn's BMW, possibly more than 1.21ppm?
Doesn't change the fact it's a BMW though, I'd need to save a hell of a lot more than 92% fuel costs to have one of them ;)
Oh god you've just reminded me about the turbo lag on my old manager's BMW, now that was dire! Head down slip road, floor it, wait, wait some more, enter M4 wondering when the car's actually going to start pulling, oh there it is, I think, is it? Bloody awful car.
Weren't you up at Jim's with BMW wishbones? How much would it have cost to hire a press and get someone to make up a jig if Jim's hadn't been available?
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:But hey, at least you've now admitted that the XUD is more economical than the 110hdi.
Wey hey 1.21ppm lets go party!! :bd:
Xac wrote:Incidently, how much is a replacement lift pump?
Well looking at the same place that you will source all those spare second hand diesel pumps you said I'll need to buy if I was running on veg, i.e. say eBay, they're available for around £30-40. Which isn't that bad considering the one in my previous HDi lasted 146,328 miles and I just so happened to have one in stock that I'd bought for peanuts on an eBay auction years ago. Did the pump on your TD last as long after you started running on veg?
Ouch £40? On top of the higher fuel prices? And I've heard of them failing at less than 50K too and not that old either. But hey, if you want to need to carry a spare pump with you so you don't get stranded, or take the risk that's fine, I just wouldn't do that to my family. At least with WVO its only advisable to carry a spare filter which fits neatly in the boot side pockets, though as along as you change the fuel filter at the required intervals you'd never need the spare.
The bosch pumps fail becuase of the age of the seals. We'll see how long Cassy's new pump goes, I expect at least another half million (that's potentially 10 lift pump changes for a hdi isn't it? or £400, plus all that extra fuel duty increases).
DickieG wrote: I've got to thank you Xac for getting me to work out that there is only 1.21ppm difference between running a HDi on freely available diesel compared with messing about veg bought at specific warehouses (where membership is necessary, collecting, filters, pumps etc) I'm now even more in love with my HDi than ever before, happy days :bl:

If times get really hard for me I only have to improve consumption to 58.71mpg to match a TD on veg (did I hear someone say I'd have to do 70+mpg? [-X ) that's easily achievable just 5mpg more, I might just have a go at that for the sheer wheeze factor, of course having an engine able to pull at such low rpm will help with this.
Of course SVO is currently quite high, normally it's 70ppl, and the price is dropping back towards that, do you think diesel is going to drop by 30ppl any time soon, or go up?
And you're ignoring WVO because that makes the savings so much more and would take the wind out of your titchy sail even more.
Good luck at the next budget richard!
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
Post Reply