Contemplating a Xantia

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Post by Xaccers »

I'm sure someone described how they did it.

Off the top of my head you'd need a bosch pump (preferably fully mechanical to keep things simple), bosch injectors and pipes as the Lucas ports are in a different order, accelerator cable, possibly accelerator pedal.

The ECU can remain in place for the tacho.
I presume there's still a hole for the accelerator cable to pass through the bulkhead.

Basically I'm working on the assumption that much of it would be like replacing a semi-electric bosch with a fully mechanical.
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Post by citroenxm »

Robert Smart yours man to answer that, I think also Colin N over on CLub-xm.com... they have both done it... but in a nut shell, as long as you have Pump, Injector pipes, and injecotrs, Jobs a guddun...

Being mechanical theres no need for crank sensors, cam sensors or anything..

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Post by DickieG »

Xac wrote:Richard, I think there's something wrong with your TD if you think they're slow.
This one is the fourth one I've owned including the first one I bought brand new, three of them including my present VSX have all been the same, slow. The other one was a very early VSX TD and that was even slower and struggled to maintain a crusing speed with the A/C turned on, I once loaned that one to a mate who said it was the slowest car he'd ever driven! According to Citroen, a Xantia TD estate 0-60 time is 14.1 secs, HDi 110 estate, 11.4.

Combined fuel figures for the two gives the HDi 110 a 10 mpg advantage.
Xac wrote:Similarly with changing gears, I rarely need to do that.
How do you manage that, is yours an automatic or do you never exceed 25 mph? :lol:

With regard to gearing, TD's have much shorter ratios hence more gear changing when accelerating and NVH when cruising, the difference in torque; TD 145@2250rpm, HDi 110 184@1750rpm hence why a HDi can take much longer gearing and yet still be more flexible with no noticable turbo lag.

I recall the feeling of shock/horror when driving my brand new SX TD on the way home from the showroom and pulled out from a side junction in 2nd gear into what was a very sensible gap in most other cars and discovered turbo lag :oops: in such situations in a TD you need to go down to 1st gear then back up to second :? the XUD TD is something of a bygone era. Try a 110 HDi Xac, you'll be very surprised at the difference to a TD.

On the subject of EPIC pump's they aren't as bad as some say, make sure that there are no air leaks prior to the pump as that will cause all manner of havoc with engine running. My BIL's 2.1 starts instantly with barely one turn of the crank all year round, 2.1's have a slight turbo lag at low speeds and are a fair bit noiser at idle than a HDi but otherwise have similar performance.
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Post by CitroJim »

DickieG wrote: On the subject of EPIC pump's they aren't as bad as some say.
There :D It's not only me who likes EPIC pumps!!!!
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Post by citroenxm »

Just because you can fix em! :P :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Post by robert_e_smart »

Robert Smart yours man to answer that, I think also Colin N over on CLub-xm.com... they have both done it... but in a nut shell, as long as you have Pump, Injector pipes, and injecotrs, Jobs a guddun...
Pretty much that, and use the other mounting holes on the plate and you're done.
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Post by Xaccers »

DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Richard, I think there's something wrong with your TD if you think they're slow.
This one is the fourth one I've owned including the first one I bought brand new, three of them including my present VSX have all been the same, slow. The other one was a very early VSX TD and that was even slower and struggled to maintain a crusing speed with the A/C turned on, I once loaned that one to a mate who said it was the slowest car he'd ever driven! According to Citroën, a Xantia TD estate 0-60 time is 14.1 secs, HDi 110 estate, 11.4.
You've been very unlucky then Richard!
Or your driving style isn't compatible with the gearboxes fitted to them perhaps?
Cassy did 115mph with her original gearbox, the hdi one maxes out at about 105mph
Jim's Dex 2.1TD was flat as a pancake and struggled to get to 90.
DickieG wrote: Combined fuel figures for the two gives the HDi 110 a 10 mpg advantage.
Which is great if you don't like going to the fuel station that often, but with diesel being at least 40% more expensive at the moment if you want to actually save money the 1.9TD is the best option.
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Similarly with changing gears, I rarely need to do that.
How do you manage that, is yours an automatic or do you never exceed 25 mph? :lol:

With regard to gearing, TD's have much shorter ratios hence more gear changing when accelerating and NVH when cruising, the difference in torque; TD 145@2250rpm, HDi 110 184@1750rpm hence why a HDi can take much longer gearing and yet still be more flexible with no noticable turbo lag.

I recall the feeling of shock/horror when driving my brand new SX TD on the way home from the showroom and pulled out from a side junction in 2nd gear into what was a very sensible gap in most other cars and discovered turbo lag :oops: in such situations in a TD you need to go down to 1st gear then back up to second :? the XUD TD is something of a bygone era. Try a 110 HDi Xac, you'll be very surprised at the difference to a TD.
As long as mine rolling, they move fine from 2nd, foot down and away.
Most of the time I'm pootling along in 5th, or 4th if there's traffic.
If I'm in a jam that is doing 5mph and the like I'll stick in 2nd.
1st is lower than I'd like, possibly that low to aid with towing. If I had my way I'd ditch 1st, lower 2nd a little bit, and add a gear above the current 5th.
You don't need to use all the gears changing up either.
I can't remember who it was that said 1.9TDs run out of oomph at 3000rpm, I've never found that, even in 5th.
Sure if you drive in the wrong gear they're unresponsive, but that's true of any car.
Anyway, you should know; go from a minor to a major in 1st gear, and a major to a minor in 2nd gear :)
DickieG wrote: On the subject of EPIC pump's they aren't as bad as some say, make sure that there are no air leaks prior to the pump as that will cause all manner of havoc with engine running. My BIL's 2.1 starts instantly with barely one turn of the crank all year round, 2.1's have a slight turbo lag at low speeds and are a fair bit noiser at idle than a HDi but otherwise have similar performance.
Given my experience of Dex, if 110HDi's are that bad (and going by how my parents 90HDI's were they may well be) I think I'll pass!
Of course if they're more like my Laguna 2's 100DCI then we're talking :D
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Post by DickieG »

Xac wrote:
DickieG wrote:
Xac wrote:Richard, I think there's something wrong with your TD if you think they're slow.
This one is the fourth one I've owned including the first one I bought brand new, three of them including my present VSX have all been the same, slow. The other one was a very early VSX TD and that was even slower. According to Citroën, a Xantia TD estate 0-60 time is 14.1 secs, HDi 110 estate, 11.4.
You've been very unlucky then Richard!
Or your driving style isn't compatible with the gearboxes fitted to them perhaps?
Note I mentioned four that I've owned,,,,,,,,,I've driven many more they are all the same, slow with short gear ratios to give the impression of being quicker than they really are and cope with the lack of grunt much like the 1.3 Cortina's I used to sell many years ago, OK to 50 then you run out of ratios! Citroens stated engine figures, 20 bhp extra and 39 lb ft more torque at 500 lower rpm, do you honestly suggest that reduces performance?

As for driving style, well I have a fair bit of knowledge about driving cars and how to get the best from them, I believe that how I've been earning a living for the past 26 years and what/who I've been teaching for 12 years is evidence of that.
Xac wrote:Cassy did 115mph with her original gearbox, the hdi one maxes out at about 105mph
Different gearbox, IIRC that box was from a 90 HDi = shorter ratio's as per a TD. According to Citroen, TD's max out @ 110 (saloon) and 107 (estate), the HDi 110 @ 119 (saloon) and 116 (estate).

Have you ever driven a normally aspirated diesel or SD Xantia and compared the performance difference with a TD Xantia? If you have you'll have some idea of the difference I and others are talking about. If you've never owned/tried a HDi 110 some might say that you don't have a valid opinion,,,,,,,,,,

Of course you could be like the Guinness advert of "I've never tried it because I don't like it!" Is this a photo a fair representation of Xac's thoughts of HDi's :lol:

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Post by Citroenmad »

Xac wrote:Given my experience of Dex, if 110HDi's are that bad (and going by how my parents 90HDI's were they may well be) I think I'll pass!
Of course if they're more like my Laguna 2's 100DCI then we're talking :D
If you only had the 100 DCi and not the 120 then you will be impressed with a 110 Xantia HDi.

HDis are excellent engines, probably less so the 90 which is underpowered for the size of car (mind, same power as the 1.9TD), has lower gearing etc. The 110 is a very good and hardy unit.

I was driving a Audi A4 1.9 TDi 130 yesterday, besides it being quite the dull car with awful suspension the engine was no match for my 138HDi in my C5. HDis do take some beating if you give them a chance.

However with you running your 1.9s on veg they won't appeal anyway :lol:
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Post by citroenxm »

HDi Maxing out at 105, theres something wrong there then!! Oh yes, you talking the 90bhp ones, which are almost as bad as the XUD's

But the 110bhps max out at around 120... So far all mine have ! I just cannot see an XUD keeping pace with the HDi and TDi of today, theres no comparison, 90bhp compared at varied figures from 110 to 170bhp...

But we not arguing performance, its economy...

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Post by Dommo »

Xac wrote:If I had my way I'd ditch 1st, lower 2nd a little bit, and add a gear above the current 5th.
That's basically the description of a HDi box. Every gear is longer so cruising at 70 you're doing 2250 odd RPM as opposed to the 3k you're doing with the 1.9 box. (certainly true for the boxes fitted to 306 HDi's - which were all 90hp and cable clutched)

I must admit if veg oil didn't come into the equation there's no way I'd have an early 1.9TD xantia, it's slower than sin unless you tweak the fuel pump and up the boost and not brilliant on fuel. And by early I mean, pre '99, as in late '98 - '99 they fitted the smaller HDi turbos to the 1.9TD engine and trust me, it made a HUGE difference to the driveability of the car. My 306 is a '99 with a Garrett GT15 turbo which they fitted to the HDi's - must have bought a truck load of them for the HDi's and decided to fit them to the last of the 1.9 engines - and the response is amazing compared to the bigger s**t turbos that were fitted to the earlier 1.9's. The GT15 tails off after about 4k, but who revs a diesel that far anyway? And even if you do it's the tailing off is massive. Before you ask I have driven a '95 306 with the old bigger turbo so I have compared like with like, I wasn't comparing 1.9 xantia with 1.9 306.

The turbo size is the main reason why the HDi has peak torque 500 or so rpm lower. Direct injection being the reason it has a larger peak torque. So if you imagine the 1.9 with the HDi turbo, you basically have a similar torque curve (shape) but just a bit lower down the graph.

In my perfect world I'd have a 1.9TD (or 2.1TD with an XM Bosch pump actually now I think about it) Activa with a Bosch pump, HDi gearbox, and late 1.9 turbo. Then you'd have the increased driveability/improved torque curve of the HDi, longer HDi ratios, veg oil compatibility, and active suspension :twisted:
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Post by Dommo »

Something else I forgot to mention, the GT15 turbo was able to make full boost, which on mine was a huge 18psi/1.35bar when I tuned it, at around 1900 RPM. Standard boost is 1 bar/14.7psi, which it was able to make at 1750 or so RPM, which further backs the reason why the HDi is able to make peak torque so low down. (and why the 1.9 should have been fitted with the HDi turbo from the start!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2sTGiwjfKU

This was my 306 back when I first bought it and tuned it, I know its a 306 and lighter, but this 306 is the full spec meridian 5dr with AC so weighs in at 1250 kg, so a low spec Xantia isn't much heavier than this. 1-200 kilos at most. The other thing with the small turbo is that even when tuned, its not a smokey horrible thing because it's able to provide boost at such low RPM. Basically it's much much better.. The turbo is almost able to boost at idle, as I found out when I was changing the exhaust and I decided to turn the engine on to see what it sounds like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAAXMIh5Lrs ;)
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Post by Xaccers »

I've owned 3 NA 205Ds and was able to get over 100mph out of them.
I've also had the displeasure of driving several 90hdis and found them as bad as Dex.
Yes if you add an extra 20hp you're going to have more power, but you won't increase fuel economy by the 40% or more that you need to beat the 1.9TD's economy.
I simply do not recognise the comments you've made about the 1.9TD Richard, that's all, Cassy and Jenny pull all the way to the red line in all bar 5th where she maxed out at 115 (on veg, on diesel she would only do 110), similarly with the comments about needing to change through the gears all the time, or not be able to pull in 2nd.
The 1.9TD engine and gearbox handles like no other diesel that I've driven of it's time, or since, so yes driving style and knowing how to drive it does come into it. I've seen people who've driven XUDs for 20 years and still get it wrong so please don't think I was having a pop or insulting you by my comments.
I've not driven a 110hdi yet, but from people saying it's like the 2.1TD which I have driven, it does give me reservations (especially as the 90hdi is less responsive than an 88hp XUD with the same gearbox).
I've never denied what you've said about the 110's properties so I'm a tad confused why you felt you needed to say my head is in the sand over it :(

You're the one who's claimed the 1.9TD is flat and slow (something I've never experienced). Now if you actually meant "When compared with the 110" fair enough, assuming the 110 is actually nothing like Dex or the 90hdi, I don't have a problem with that, but it'd be like me saying "the 110 is slow and flat" when I meant "compared to my 130hp megane"
or "compared to thrust SSC"

Either way, when it comes to economy the 110 cannot compare with the 1.9TD (well maybe for a few miles before the pump gums up)
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Post by addo »

I advise the OP to buy an Alfa GTA 147/156 instead.

After a few months' spirited driving - which will create need for surgical removal of an insane grin - the ability to make a relaxed, objective choice of the best Xantia for them, will be possible.
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Post by DickieG »

Xac wrote:I've owned 3 NA 205Ds and was able to get over 100mph out of them.
What relevance does that have to the debate?
Xac wrote:I simply do not recognise the comments you've made about the 1.9TD Richard, that's all, Cassy and Jenny pull all the way to the red line in all bar 5th where she maxed out at 115 (on veg, on diesel she would only do 110), similarly with the comments about needing to change through the gears all the time, or not be able to pull in 2nd.
The 1.9TD engine and gearbox handles like no other diesel that I've driven of it's time, or since, so yes driving style and knowing how to drive it does come into it. I've seen people who've driven XUDs for 20 years and still get it wrong so please don't think I was having a pop or insulting you by my comments.I've seen people who've driven XUDs for 20 years and still get it wrong so please don't think I was having a pop or insulting you by my comments.
I'm interested in what makes you think that XUD's produce more power when running on veg compared to diesel as according to all the research I've done the cetane value of veg/rapeseed oil at best only matches diesel and due to its thicker viscosity it does not atomise as well which if anything leads to a loss of power and places additional strain on the pump.

How would you describe the correct or wrong way of driving an XUD? Seriously, I'm interested to know your thoughts. No offence taken by me, its all part of the debate :D
Xac wrote:I've never denied what you've said about the 110's properties so I'm a tad confused why you felt you needed to say my head is in the sand over it :(
You appear to be a lone figure when it comes in accepting that a 110 is significantly quicker and more flexible than an XUD 90, almost as if you're in a state of denial about something you've not even experienced.
Xac wrote:You're the one who's claimed the 1.9TD is flat and slow (something I've never experienced). Now if you actually meant "When compared with the 110" fair enough, assuming the 110 is actually nothing like Dex or the 90hdi, I don't have a problem with that, but it'd be like me saying "the 110 is slow and flat" when I meant "compared to my 130hp megane"
Yes that's exactly what I mean as below 1900 rpm the XUD is off boost and flat resulting in a useable rev range of just 2100 compared with the 110 having no noticeable turbo lag unless below 1000 rpm giving a useable range of 3000 rpm, XUD's go OK once there are spinning beyond 1900 rpm but are as flat as a pancake below that hence more gear changing required with them. If you're saying that your Xantia's are apparently different to all the ones I've experienced (I can count at least eight for sure) you'll have to let me and others in on on the secret.

I can only think that you're being confused by the additional noise created by the necessarily higher revved XUD giving you the impression of them being far quicker than they actually are. By comparison a RR Ghost is dead silent at any speed, its only when you look at the speedo/notice the speed you are rushing past things that you realise just how blisteringly quick they are unless the accelerator is floored and you are literally pinned back in your seat. The only Xantia I would describe as 'brisk' is a V6.
Xac wrote:Either way, when it comes to economy the 110 cannot compare with the 1.9TD (well maybe for a few miles before the pump gums up)
That's only if you can be bothered with the hassle of running on veg which apparently causes the fuel pipes to deteriorate, the necessary additional fuel filter changes and strain on the pump/timing belt. For me all that's a no brainer, but each to their own.
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