C4 Picasso V F*** Focus C Max comments plse

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Post by myglaren »

Have you considered Lexus?

Image

Some of the V8s can be had for a very reasonable price and offer a great deal of comfort and reliability, although they do have the reputation for being terminally dull and boring.

Never been in one so I don't speak from personal experience.

I had an Accord (Rover 600 type) that I found perfectly OK and extremely reliable. Cheapest car I have owned in terms of reliability Replaced the back box twice and put a radiator in it, not bad for an 11 year old car.
Did a ridiculous amount of miles in it before someone rear-ended it and wrote it off.
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Post by Citroenmad »

When i talk about C5s, I never count the C5III, quite a different car, mainly coil sprung, though a lot of the running gear is obviously the same/similar. Im disappointed with it to an extent, time will tell if thats what ill get to replace this one in a few years time, i suspect not.
cachaciero wrote:
When buying a secondhand car you have to think about what is likely to go wrong and how much is it going to cost. Well it seems to me that at 60K plus the average PSA car is coming up for a lot of major cost, DMF, Clutch, Rear Arm bearings, suspension bushes, Cam Belt add to that that many start to look internally tired at this mileage. This was not true of previous generations a 100K was nothing for an XM or Xantia and no one would have considered any of the above failures as likely to be major issues, in part because the parts concerned were better engineered or more substantial or because the normal service intervals being shorter items such as cambelts would have been addressed at least once before the second owner purchased the car.:-)
I agree about evaluating costs and reliability of a car, this is something i really look into when buying a car, and it initially brought me to a C5! Size wise i wanted a big car, so i did compare all of the large hatchbacks i could. Im a student and work part time, I need my car to get me to work and uni, doing quite a few miles (1500+ a month at present) and i cant afford the time or money to put it right if it consistently goes wrong. So far the 3 C5s ive owned have all been cost effective to run. I must say, this 138 is by far the most economical and hopefully, given its mileage and its not that old, it should stay reliable for a good while. It represents excellent value for money, I stand by my comment from getting my 138 a month or so ago, there is no other car id rather have at present. It does everything i need and want and more, plus it satisfies my interest in Citroens.

Ifyu have not tried a later C5II, id recommend trying one, as i think there are numerous improvements over the original.

Some interesting points, however ...

At 60K there should be no reason for the DMF, clutch, rear arm bearings or suspension bushes to even be thinking about needing replacement, the cambelt either.

Our 5 C5s have proven me something, faults are not that common. Ive not had one DMF fail, our first estate required a clutch at 105K miles but only because the previous owner wore it out, the DMF was fine. That car also required a radious arm bearing at 107K miles, though its an easy job. The cambelt on that car was done at 104K.

Yes, our current 52 plate C5 had a DMF at 60K, before my ownership, its been replaced with a solid flywheel and has done 128K now and its fine.

Cambelts are supposed to last 100K on 8V HDis and 150K on 16Vs, so dont worry about those at 60K miles.

Ive yet to have to replace any suspension bushes.

Our facelifted 05reg C5 2.0HDi 16v 138 estate has hauled heavy weights since we have owned it, its now on 68K with no signs of clutch wear of DMF failure. That car has only required a drop link (£30) in the last 23K miles/18 months in our ownership, obviously servicing and tyres too. It does 45-48MPG with the heavy load in, well over 50 without. Everything works as it should, the interior shows no sign of wear apart from the interior door grab handle on the drivers side. There are no radius arm bearing problems or worn bushes. Its an absolute pleasure.

You say the 2.2 diesel Toyota does 48 on the combined, I assume thats a manual? In that case so does the 2.0HDi 138 C5 and the 1.6HDi does even better. Im averaging between 48-50MPG with my 138, im very pleased with that, small car economy in a huge car, excellent! SO the Toyota has a little more power, but you said you didn't need so much power.

If i was forced to buy a similar sized car to my C5 which does as much as this but without buying another C5, id struggle, especially as none will offter the comfort or self leveling - something i use and like. On my list would be:
New shape Ford Mondeo: Huge cars, some use PSA engines (I like that!), good value for money, easy to find and well equipped. The older model looks a bit dated now and i was disappointed when looking for one before getting my 04plate C5.
Vauxhall Insignia: Again, a big hatch, well equipped, not sure about reliability as i think they still use Fiat diesels. Ive heard owners say they dont like them though, as would prefer their old Vectra - obviously people who drive company cars!

There are other hatchbacks which would do, the Laguna is ok, but its trim quality is low rent and its not the best looker.

The 407 would be high on my list of possibles, as they are really nice cars, but a saloon wouldn't do me so it would have to be a SW and im not sure if i want an estate. If i didnt need a hatchback, then id be looking at Volvos too, reasonably good value, usually very reliable, offer some interesting little touches over other cars. I pretty much like all of the 'S' Volvos and id recommend one. A V70 might suit your needs, or a V50? For some reason i find Volvos slightly interesting, i discounted the Toyota Avensis as id be bored with it in no time.

What about a German car? Usually reliable and well made, a Passat estate? Though in my opinion value for money isnt there, you have to pay a premium for them.

I know i probably have C5 tinted spectacles, but when you look at their many many plus points, its hard to justify enough negatives to put you off. Especially when you compare it to competitor cars.
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Post by KP »

Have you considered a decent Verso T180??

Lots of toys just need to find one thats cheap and has been reliable so history is vital as the 2.2 units can be very bad in them :(

Cmax is rubbish from my own experience living with one for a week, 2.0l model.

C4 GP Exclusive is good just EGS is rubbish :( VTX+ models are half decent and cheap.
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Post by cachaciero »

Some interesting thoughts suggestions here.

First V8 Lexus frankly not my cup of tea and being available at a reasonable price..:-) I'm surprised in todays climate that anybody would expect to get money for one :-)

Verso? no I hadn't looked at this but I have now :-) quite like the look of it, however the only difference that I can see between it and the Cit C4 grand Piccaso is that the Verso is statistically more reliable. Problems with the 2.2 are?

Warranty Direct who do mechanical breakdown insurance have a reliability index which makes for interesting reading see:-

http://www.reliabilityindex.com/top-100

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Post by cachaciero »

Citroenmad wrote:. It does everything i need and want and more, plus it satisfies my interest in Citroëns.

If yu have not tried a later C5II, id recommend trying one, as i think there are numerous improvements over the original.
Yes the reliability data would seem to bear that out.

Some interesting points, however ...

At 60K there should be no reason for the DMF, clutch, rear arm bearings or suspension bushes to even be thinking about needing replacement, the cambelt either.

Our 5 C5s have proven me something, faults are not that common. Ive not had one DMF fail, our first estate required a clutch at 105K miles but only because the previous owner wore it out, the DMF was fine. That car also required a radious arm bearing at 107K miles, though its an easy job. The cambelt on that car was done at 104K.

Yes, our current 52 plate C5 had a DMF at 60K, before my ownership, its been replaced with a solid flywheel and has done 128K now and its fine.

Cambelts are supposed to last 100K on 8V HDis and 150K on 16Vs, so dont worry about those at 60K miles.

Ive yet to have to replace any suspension bushes.
The 60K figure was used as the intial point at which these problems could start to occur and was I have to admit largely based upon tracking problems on Mk1 C5's some of these problems may not happen until nearer 100K but a lot of C5 1 's have had some or all of these problems by 100K. Mine has had to have new rear arm bearings at 94K, nearside front lower arm bushes, @ about 100KI suspect that the offsides are not great. Every rubber bushing I've had off the car have been badly deformed or crushed so why not the rest?. I do know that some of these items were changed round about Mk 2 introduction so maybe things have got better. Clutch well I have an auto so that hasn't been an issue but reading posts here and in other places would indicate that clutch replacement at 90-110K is quite common and DMF often seem to fail at round about the same figure, interestingly the Avensis also seems to have the same problems / timeline for this item.
Leaving aside the DMF issue Clutches on the CX lasted in excess of 120K and manual XM's seemed to have been similarly long lived in this respect. Point is if I was buying an XM with a solid clutch @ 70K I would have reasonable confidence that i was likely to get another 40-50K out of it. Buying a C5 today with 70K on the clock I can be pretty sure that I am going to be in the hole for a new clutch within the next 20-30K and possibly a flywheel as well.

You say the 2.2 diesel Toyota does 48 on the combined, I assume thats a manual? In that case so does the 2.0HDi 138 C5 and the 1.6HDi does even better. Im averaging between 48-50MPG with my 138, im very pleased with that, small car economy in a huge car, excellent! SO the Toyota has a little more power, but you said you didn't need so much power.
Yes the Toyota is manual, one decision i have had to make is that to maximise savings I have to have a manual transmission, much as I regard them as anachronistic.
Yes you are right more than a 110BHP is o.k but if I can get a 140 for the same tax and consumption then I will take it :-)


The 407 would be high on my list of possibles, as they are really nice cars, but a saloon wouldn't do me so it would have to be a SW and im not sure if i want an estate. If i didnt need a hatchback, then id be looking at Volvos too, reasonably good value, usually very reliable, offer some interesting little touches over other cars. I pretty much like all of the 'S' Volvos and id recommend one. A V70 might suit your needs, or a V50? For some reason i find Volvos slightly interesting, i discounted the Toyota Avensis as id be bored with it in no time.

Well as i said previously I do like the 407SW in terms of flexibility and looks it's spot on but I do read lot's of stories which bring into question the reliability of the car and this does seem to be borne out by the reliability index

What about a German car? Usually reliable and well made, a Passat estate? Though in my opinion value for money isnt there, you have to pay a premium for them.
.
Thought about that to but interestingly none of them are that reliable according to the data, the C5 is considerably more reliable than either BMW or Mercedes. and anyway they don't do hatches or compact estates / MPV's except for the Merceds A class which I find quite attractive but reliability of those doesn't seem to be that high either and they arn't cheap for what they are.
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Post by Citroenmad »

With the way you see a lot of people driving its no wonder clutches dont last, as they get abuse. 100K has always seemed to be the standard mileage to expect clutch failure, im sure with good driving that can be extended, however if you get a car whcih its previous owner has abused the clutch then it might not last anywhere near 100K, maybe not even 60K. We had a Fiat Stilo, bought with 35K miles and the clutch was about ruined, due to the driving habits of the previous owner.

Most modern diesels do have a DMF, its something we are going to have to get used to and budegt the cost of replacement into our running costs. Its not the fact that the PSA has a particularily bad DMF, they last a similar aount of time as other DMFs.

100K is a good mileage for a component to last in my opinion, things like rubber bushes and arm bearings, its not a bad lifetime. A manual Xm should see way more than 120K on a clutch, 200 would not be out of reach if it were used properly.

Going by your last post, the C5 is stacking up to be quite a good car again?

Every car has problems, some are very off putting when you look into them, but the C5s less so, so it might need a DMF but so will many other diesels. And arm bearings etc are wear and tear, other cars will have similar issues at similar mileages.

You could always try and find a low mileage car .... not always easy but if you find a good one it should pay off in the long run.
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Post by KevMayer »

Most reviews of new cars over the past few years all seem to say " nice car but not as good as a Mondeo ".

The Mondeo is very popular and by all accounts a great all rounder. Have you considered a Mondeo?

The current body shape in hatchback form has a massive boot.
Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

Used to have:- Xantia 1.9 TurboD SX. 1996 Blue & 1998 Silver Activa. + 1992 BX TZD Turbo.
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Post by cachaciero »

KevMayer wrote:Most reviews of new cars over the past few years all seem to say " nice car but not as good as a Mondeo ".

The Mondeo is very popular and by all accounts a great all rounder. Have you considered a Mondeo?

The current body shape in hatchback form has a massive boot.
But it's a Ford!!!!

No but I keep coming back to the same some what unpalatable perspective that i ought to consider the previous unconsiderable :-)

Talking of which having a wander around a used car dealer today only because he had a top spec Avensive and I wanted to see the thing in the flesh so to speak he also had a Pug 207SW which he reckoned would be right up my street and to be honest I thought he might be right, then he said of course the Jag might also suit you. Jag says I don't be daft, well says he we have here one of the best kept secrets in the trade. he then shows me an X Type Jaguar estate with a 2 Litre Ford acka PSA diesel.

These are good cars says he well built good load carriers refined ride and only £155 a year VED. and this one is one owner 61K and full history and it's less than £7K

Having just had few beers with an old mate I left quickly before I did anything stupid :-)

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Post by Citroenmad »

A close family member had an X-type estate with the PSA diesel until a few weeks ago when it got written off. He loved it, thought it was a great car, very refined and economical he said. He was going to buy another, but i guess you know what im about to say ...

... he bought a 2006 Citroen C5 2.0HDi 138 Exclusive hatch, and he loves that too!

The 207SW is a good looking car, not huge but not too small either. Depends what you need a car for really.

I dont mind the new Mondeo so much, it seems to be good at being a car but the previous one is looking a bit past it now. Maybe its just me, but they seem to be showing their age in the stying department now, the high thin sills i dont like, the fact i found few 2003/4 ones without rust didnt inspire confidence either.

C5s are at most £155 to tax and a low mileage one can be had for much less than £7K.
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Post by KevMayer »

Cheers, Kev

02 plate C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive SE (now 170k miles 03/21).

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Post by bencowell »

The 2.2 173 VTX is the new twin turbo engine (also used by Ford, Land Rover etc) and does not have the bugs that can afflict the old 2.2 136. There's no need to be scared of the 2.2 173.

It is deceptively quick, but while its not a lot quicker than the 2.0 off the traffic lights, it makes very light work of motorway overtakes.

And I find I average 46mpg and I do a lot of commuting!

Ben
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Post by cachaciero »

bencowell wrote:The 2.2 173 VTX is the new twin turbo engine (also used by Ford, Land Rover etc) and does not have the bugs that can afflict the old 2.2 136. There's no need to be scared of the 2.2 173.

It is deceptively quick, but while its not a lot quicker than the 2.0 off the traffic lights, it makes very light work of motorway overtakes.

And I find I average 46mpg and I do a lot of commuting!

Ben
Yes but what's it like around town and what's the VED?

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Post by bencowell »

Round town its easy to drive. The low down torque means that traffic jams can be left foot only. Very hard to stall.

It's practically an automatic as it will pull away in just about any gear at any speed, so you don't have to change gear often.

The worst consumption I've had has been 38mpg and that was all short journeys in winter including several -10 degrees defrosts and warm ups while scraping.

Like all C5's the visibility isn't the best at the back, but the s2 C5 has holes in the bumper for parking sensors, so you can fit an aftermarket kit easily.

The bumpers are strong and shrug off bumps and knocks with ease. I can see the faintest cracking on the bumper inserts after I assume someone hit me when parked.

The C5 front doors stay open in 3 positions, the first being suitable for even the smallest car park spot.

The only downside with the C5 is that the suspension is definatly set up for the motorway and A roads. While pretty competent in the twisty back roads, you do occasionally feel and hear potholes more than say, a C6 or even a Xsara Picasso. It's nothing to worry about though.

Saying that, the auto adjusting suspension height means you'll never scrape the sump on a speed hump no matter how much you have on board.

I'm on C5 number 2, Chris (Citroenmad) has had several C5's in the family (including my first C5!) so we can both say with confidence that they are good cars.

Take the 2.2 for a spin. You won't be disappointed. If you don't love it, I'll eat my shoes.

Ben
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Post by Citroenmad »

The above 2.2 looks very good value for money!

Great engine the 2.2.

Though you do seem to be leaning away from a C5, a Toyota is more appealing? ... :lol: Though i maintain the later C5s carry many improvements over the first.
bencowell wrote:
I'm on C5 number 2, Chris (Citroenmad) has had several C5's in the family (including my first C5!) so we can both say with confidence that they are good cars.

Ben
Yep, 5 in my family, three of which have been mine. :lol: I wouldn't have had so many if i thought there were bad cars or if they went wrong all the time. Get a good one and it will serve you well.

I can confirm the bumpers are tough, as you know Ben, my sis attempted to knock down the wall of the drive with her C5. Dont have a clue how she managed it, as she was no where near round the wall. Its scuffed the insert trim badly, but the bumper is still in one piece and attached firmly. I just need to get a new insert and get it painted. I also had someone reverse into the back of my 04 reg C5, didnt even leave a scratch, the bumper of the other car was cracked, the number plate bulbs were hanging on the wires! Ive not tested the bumpers myself, not as a result of my driving! Ill be less than amused if someone batters my current C5s bumpers!

You bring up some interesting points Ben, I agree with them.
Chris
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Post by bencowell »

I forgot to say. The tax on the 2.2 173 is a very respectable £155 (so I remember) as the CO2 is only 160g which is the same tax bracket as the 2.0 HDI.
Currently driving a 2004 C5 VTR (old shape) and an Electric Kia Soul. Sorry but the electric one is my favourite!
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