Runaway handbrake!

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Linegeist
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Post by Linegeist »

In the absence of any info to the contrary in your profile I assume you're the bloke who sells the licences down the pub then? [:p][^][:)]
vanny
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Post by vanny »

Dave, back discs get hot too!! Have you ever heard of a rear disc handbrake coming loose?? I know the physics behind it, but front AND back get hot (even on the BX) after a decent thrash or long haul, so there is no ideal logic to why rear hand brakes dotn fail and front do. But after a day thinging about it and examining various BX's and Xantia's could the hand brake cable its self have anything to do with it? Given that it is continuously bending and twisting (and in most cases rubbing on the wheels)!
Oh poor Alan, you want to come over here and see some of the 'drivers' that are allowed on the roads. Between them that dont understand what a mirror is for to those that dont have indicators fitted (or so it seems). You would be amazed how many of my peers that i have had to reeducate on how to drive (remembering im still a driving newbie). Far to many in this country think that the first lane is for lorrys and caravans, the middle lane is for driving in (at at least 70mph) and the outside lane is for when you need to get some where fast. Scary thing is this is EXACTLY what the believe and do!! As for taking the car out of gear there is a good reason in this country, my local scrap man backs it up. Aparantly these days nearly all car crash wrecks are front end write offs, where people arent paying attention and go into the back of things (lorrys, walls, trees etc). The problem here is that when stopping at a roundabout there is NO guarantee the guy behind is gonna stop, hence taking the car OUT of gear means when you get shunted from behind, you dont bounce up off the clutch launching the car into traffic, usually in front of a truck!!
As a quick survey, who here DOES park there car in gear at all times?
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Post by Oystercatcher »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by algieuk</i>

Or worse still, being the someone having your legs crushed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Almost been there [:(] I was helping a neighbour with a Fiat Uno which wouldn't start. I asked her to switch the ignition on, so she tries to start the car, which is in gear. She eventually jumped out to find me flat on my back with the car halfway up my legs. Through gritted teeth, I said "I only asked you to turn the ignition on, not start the fsck'ing thing". She genuinly didn't realise you could have the ignition on without starting the engine[:0]
Jon

Post by Jon »

I always leave the car in gear and always have done, same goes for Mrs W. Simple enough to dip the clutch before you start the engine!
In America, things are made a bit more idiot proof. We used to have a new shape LHD Beetle that was a USA import here at GSF, I'd driven it loads of times and never noticed anything odd. Anyway, one of the girls here borrowed it to go to the Bank, and after 5 mins came back saying that it would not start, the starter was not turning at all. I got into the car and it started straight away, turned it off, Annya got back in, and again, nothing! After some head scratching found that VW had put in an idiot proof mechanism. You could not start the car unless you depressed the clutch first! I'd never noticed this as I always dip the clutch, but my colleage uses the "check if its in neutral, and start the car without pressing the clutch" method, so thats why it wouldn't start for her!
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Post by DLM »

I've always used the belt'n'braces approach of leaving the car in gear - but then I did my first driving around South Wales where most hills are like mountain faces compared to many other parts of the UK.[8D]
I also dip the clutch before starting like Jon, partly because I read through the BX manual when I first got one and found it advised this procedure in cold weather. For some reason this habit has stuck with me at all times - apart from the obvious reason that it has to be done if the car's left in gear!
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Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by vanny</i>

As a quick survey, who here DOES park there car in gear at all times?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I do, I've had enough runaway BX reminders.
I also always press the clutch in to start the engine.
As for applying the handbrake and engaging neutral at traffic lights:
I though the idea was to save wear on the clutch (and/or) release bearings. I don't know how long it takes the lights to change wherever you are but over here the lights go from red to red and amber then green which gives plenty of time to engage first.
Sometimes it takes so long for the lights to change my leg would have gone to sleep and slipped off the pedal if I sat there with the car in gear.[|)]
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Post by Linegeist »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by vanny</i>
Dave, back discs get hot too!! Have you ever heard of a rear disc handbrake coming loose?? I know the physics behind it, but front AND back get hot (even on the BX) after a decent thrash or long haul, so there is no ideal logic to why rear hand brakes dotn fail and front do. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi Vanny. Forgive me, but waaay back when I did a Motor Vehicle Tech's apprenticeship (remember those?) I seem to recall being taught that the front brakes on a motor vehicle provide between 60% and 70% of the total braking effort, depending on factors such as weight transference, wheel diameter, etc.
As the sole purpose of the brakes is to convert the momentum of the car's mass into heat by way of friction, it follows that the front brake discs will be considerably hotter than their rear counterparts after any braking effort.
This would appear to me to mitigate against the use of front actuating handbrake mechanisms and would also neatly explain why the front handbrake problem exists on the Citroens and the more conventional rear handbrakes don't have this problem ..... or am I missing something [?]
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Post by Homer »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Linegeist</i>

would also neatly explain why the front handbrake problem exists on the Citroens and the more conventional rear handbrakes don't have this problem ..... or am I missing something [?]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I remember when they first put disk rear brakes on Ford Escorts they had the same trouble. And our old Volvo 140 had disk rear brakes with a small drum brake in the centre for the handbrake. I wonder how many cars still have this kind of system.
A majority of cars still have drums at the back and rear wheel handbrake. If a drum brake slips the shoes are pushed against the drum by the turning action which increases the braking.
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Post by hswift »

Yup, always dip the clutch when starting the engine.
A colleague recently took a hire car on a business trip. There were no parking spaces when he arrived at the hotel, so he left the keys with the concierge to park up for him. Next morning he got in, started the engine and the car jumped forward, hit a wall or something and bent the wing. The concierge had only gone and left it in gear!
alan s
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Post by alan s »

This has been a bit of a fun posting reading the (driving) cultural differences as well as the pros & cons of the handbrake set up.
For anyone who has never suffered from a total brake failure or had a learner driver "freeze" in panic, (in a car without dual controls) the idea of a front disc operated handbrake is extremely practical as it becomes an emergency brake. Use a rear wheel operated handbrake in these situations & providing it is working, will promptly turn the car 180 degrees. There are more reasons a front operating brake is more practical than a rear, not the least of which is that all cars have their brake bias set with a front preference so as to save the aforesaid "shaking hands with the exhaust pipe" scenario. As a result, rear brakes are usually smaller & as in the majority of cases, the front brakes are used almost solely in all but panic stops, hence tend to get contaminated with rust & dust & so don't actually work as they should; lining on drum which becomes lining on a film of rust & grit.[:p] So whilst in principle they possibly should be more effective, in practice they aren't.
The most effective handbrake I ever had anything to do with though was an old Toyota Stout idea; one that operated on the tailshaft. Boy did that ever lock things up tight. Only problems were, over adjusted & the vehicle would simply grind to a stop as the lining heated and everything expanded, get someone who tended to take off like an F1 driver & it was possible on a car with big miles & good or new handbrake to take a tailshaft out & forget to fully take the handbrake off & drive a few miles or as I say, overadjust one & that was the end of the handbrake & it was an expensive one to fix.
Of course, parking a car in gear without the handbrake only works providing you don't have a slipping clutch...[B)]
As regards the starting procedure, we taught it in a regimented style by numbers. (Quote from my earlier posting with numbers added as it was taught)
"Our standard procedure when starting is/was; # 1 handbrake on, # 2 car in neutral, # 3 clutch in & # 4 hit the starter"
This way they do a mental check on themselves...after all, besides basic training, I taught both defensive as well as advanced driving techniques which possibly accounts for my sometimes annoying (to some people) attention to minute detail. [:0][:(!]
Alan S
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Post by AlanBP »

My BX TZD ran away just last week. Parked it in a Carpark which has a slight incline. Woke up in the morning & it had moved 100 yards and was right up the back of a Pug 309 accross the otherside!!
Reckon the handbrake was just about to "auto adjust" up to the next notch, because afterthat I pressed the pedal firmly a few times & everything is OK now.
AlanP
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Post by pwatson »

"As a quick survey, who here DOES park there car in gear at all times?"
I do, always have done. My dad told me to when he was teaching me to drive (1960s. He said learning to drive in the army he was always told to park in gear). I always dip the clutch when starting any vehicle, but my wife doesn't so I have to be very careful when I have driven hers!
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Post by Linegeist »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AlanBP</i>

Woke up in the morning & it had moved 100 yards and was right up the back of a Pug 309 accross the otherside!!
AlanP
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You could of course simply have a randy BX!!!!![:0][:0][:0]
Try throwing a bucket of cold water over it - works for my cat!
Jon

Post by Jon »

Now it seems that Saxo's could be running away too!
http://www.parkers.co.uk/advice/message ... IC_ID=4376
[:o)]
alan s
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Post by alan s »

So apart from the dramas, I take it I drive like a Yank??
Parking in gear & turning wheels into kerbs...[:o)][}:)][}:)][:D]
Alan S [B)][:p]
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