Xantia 1.9TD - dead, following loud engine noise.

HDI · Post by **HDI** » 13 Dec 2010, 20:29

Do also check the crank pulley, when these start to fail they go out of line and cause the aux belt to run over the edge of the other pulleys.

mattiker · Post by **mattiker** » 14 Dec 2010, 10:26

Update.

Went out to the car after work last night, called the RAC in to look at it and get a tow. He had a good poke around - he had me crank it over whilst he sprayed something into the air filter (cant imagine that helped!). Whilst cranking over it sounded like there was compression there (fairly healthy sounding, to my ears). He then theorised that it could be the fuel pump, may have lost a tooth and caused the timing belt to skip. He loosened off a fuel line bolt. I think where they attached to the injectors - then had me crank it, you could see fuel coming through where the bolt had been loosened. He reckoned that the fuel pressure should be much greater than it was (i.e spurting out like a fountain) - which led him to conclude that it may be the fuel pump's sprocket gone bad, and possible damage to the valves. His conclusion: "stick it on ebay, spares or repairs, see what yer get for it".

I can't say I have much confidence in this RAC man's knowledge of Citroens.

I've also been able to question my GF in more detail about the noise prior to complete failure. It sounded like a really old rattley diesel, much louder than normal. Also of note, there was no noticeable loss of power, and it failed going up a steep hill.

Without being able to hear the sound it made before it started playing up, we're just going through possibilities, as I said, it could be that the needle lift sensor was playing up so the fine tuning of the pump timing was out causing the car to sound rattly.

Does my 1.9TD have a needle lift sensor - I dont know what this is...but just googled it and I think it may apply to the HDI engines?

So the big question is do I get my hands mucky and have a go, or just get shut? Looking at the timing belt cover it looks like I have to dismantle the top of the suspension strut to get the timing belt cover off (thank you citroen!) - is this correct? I may, as suggested, take the cam cover off and check under there.

THANKS!

Post by **RichardW** » 14 Dec 2010, 12:11

A 99 1.9TD will have the needle lift sensor - look for a small wire on No 3 injector (one of two middle ones - can't remember which way Cit numbered these!). This wouldn't stop it starting though...

It's got to be worth taking the upper covers off and checking the timing / looking at the state of the belt. You may well need to remove the upper engine mount to get the covers off - can't remember exactly - just support the engine on a jack / block of wood under the sump and unbolt the mount. There is damned awkward bolt down the back of the top cover, but this may be missing if a garage has been there before....

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 14 Dec 2010, 12:34

Support the sump with a trolley jack.
Remove the side engine mount, 16mm nuts if memory serves.
Proceed to fight, I mean remove, the top cam belt covers.
I've found that a 10mm ratchet spanner comes in useful when tacking the nut on the pump sprocket cover, tape the spanner to a longer bar so you can reach down easily.
Also use the jack to lift and drop the engine making access easier.
You can also remove the ECU box (big black thing in front of the engine mount, it's held down by two bolts, one inside so carefully pull the ecu up and out, you shouldn't need to disconnect it.
As has been mentioned, the cam sprocket cover has an 11mm bolt on it's backside, which is a PITA to get to, so often it isn't replaced.
Be gentle removing the covers, they go hard through age, although they aren't that expensive to replace, so don't worry too much if you snap one in frustration, we've all been there, especially when trying to refit them!

With the top two covers off, check the state of the cam and pump sprockets and have a go at turning the engine by hand via the crank pulley bolt, see if the timing has slipped at all. Don't forget the crank timing hole is on the flywheel, accessed behind the starter motor.

The needle lift sensor is on injector 3, which is the 2nd one from the cam sprocket, it will have a black lead from it going to a brown clip plug.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 14 Dec 2010, 12:43

There will be NOTHING wrong with the fuel pump.. The Roatry Injection pumps arevery strong and long lived when NOT abused with crap veggie or exposed to water contamination...

Its DEFEANTLY a tooth out on the belt! A nice simple job for us who are capable of dooing so...

A tip on later XUD engines, to get the belt covers off, the intercooler pipe across the top of the inlet needs to come off, as it fouls the rear cover 11mm bolt hidden down the back... oh, then the other pipe that goes from the intercooler to the turbo needs to come off to get the other out the way, and that WILL be bolted by 2x 10mm nuts to the turbo outlet... VERY awkward to get at, but just possible with the top engine mount off and the engine moved up and down on a jack.. because as you lower it, it rolls forward slightly..

Paul

falling-out-with-my-car · Post by **falling-out-with-my-car** » 14 Dec 2010, 13:55

do not put a trolley jack under the sump omg. the alloy sumps are quite thick but I am sure its still not good using it as a jacking point you will need a couple of sheets of thick plywood at least to spread the weight.

if youve got a replacement steel sump which are much thinner consider finding another place to support the engine always using some wood to spread the weight between the jack and the engine.

spider · Post by **spider** » 14 Dec 2010, 14:09

I use a jack on the sump (I do have a spreader piece of wood obviously!)

I would not put the jack 'cup' directly onto the sump

falling-out-with-my-car · Post by **falling-out-with-my-car** » 14 Dec 2010, 14:11

Spider,

there is always someone who might missread it though wasnt trying to be nasty just thought it was worth pointing out for the benefit of saving a sump an expensive repair.

regards Nigel.

spider · Post by **spider** » 14 Dec 2010, 14:34

falling-out-with-my-car wrote:Spider,

there is always someone who might missread it though wasnt trying to be nasty just thought it was worth pointing out for the benefit of saving a sump an expensive repair.

regards Nigel.

It's fine

, I did not read it as 'bad' or anything. I do see your point though too, I guess its inevitable someone will try a bottle jack on the sump one day

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 14 Dec 2010, 15:02

Depends what type of cup you have, mine has handy long cut outs which support the rear edge of the sump perfectly, giving much more stability than a wobbly bit of plywood on the cup (I've seen the damaged caused when this topples off!), especially with the amount of to and fro movement the engine goes through when raised/lowered.
Best place is the O/S end of the rear edge.

mattiker · Post by **mattiker** » 14 Dec 2010, 15:31

Just want to say thanks for all you input. I really am grateful to you all - this is a great forum.

I'm going to investigate the issue as suggested. I just need to get it home. the RAC have a towing limit of 10miles so it didn't me home. Cue my other topic:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=33600

Cheers,

Matt

falling-out-with-my-car · Post by **falling-out-with-my-car** » 14 Dec 2010, 16:22

Matt,

I'd check out Autohome if I were you they take my car anywhere I want to go and never argue about it, it might be little more expensive though for the full package towing caravans etc about £12 a month but definately worth the membership. and this includes homestart and any car I am driving.

a friend of mine not far away closer to Pleiades than I am had a heck of a time getting the RAC to take his car less distance to Pleiades than my car had to go with failing suspension niggles (broken hydraulics pipe) yet Autohome just got on with the job at hand and on backroads in snow and ice. they always put the xantia on a flatbed, and never tow it front raised back end dragging although they tell me they can use nylon dragg pads to do this but ussually only in an emergency to get a vechicle out of traffic.

I always tip the drivers a drink or two cos they are on minimum wage anyway.

mattiker · Post by **mattiker** » 27 Dec 2010, 11:26

UPDATE....

I got the car towed home, and into the garage. I took the cam cover off and peeked underneath and all looked OK - nothing visibly broken. So I started taking the cam covers off, then started motor so as to access the timing hole in the flywheel. Once I'd got the top cam cover off I could see a thick thread of the old aux belt wrapped around the fuel pump sprocket - also the timing belt was out by a few teeth.

So I started taking the timing belt off, I loosened the locking and pivot bolts on the tensioner - which then just fell loose - which was odd, as I was expecting to have to pull the spring back to release the timing belt. Turns out there is no spring there, it's missing. I can only presume that the mechanic that replaced the timing belt last year did so without the spring being there - and must have tensioned the belt by hand. Is this a bad thing?

I carried on and removed the belt, aligned the timing holes, fitted the new one, tensioned by hand. Then I turned the engine over a few times on the crank using a socket - and rechecked the timing was still ok.

Then I thought, it would be nice to hear the engine running before I spend time refitting all the covers and aux belt. I reasoned it should be ok to start the engine without the aux belt on, is that right? Anyway, I turned it over on the key but it wouldn't start and I drained my starter-pack....it's on charge again right now. Frighteningly - I checked the timing belt after this and it was coming off the sprockets - eeeEECK! Luckly it hasn't popped off completely - I can only guess I need more tension on it?

Anyone got any thoughts?

Thanks again.

Matt

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 27 Dec 2010, 11:33

DO NOT start and let the engine run WITHOUT the crank pully in place!! The belt WILL run off!!

The Tensioner spring is very strong and the Cam belts on these XUD engines MUST BE TIGHT!! None of this slightly slack setting like modern engines... The engine is a 1970's design beleve it or not, and the belt MUST be perfect tight for it to run otherwise there will be a bit of belt Flap between the Cam and pump pullys.

All rensioners and pullys are of Metal design, theres NO plastic parts - or shouldn't be.

Putting the tensioner spring back in will be a very fiddly job to do! What you can try and do to tension it up is use a long screw driver and lever behind the Cam sprocket against the cam as the top of the tensioner is down there...

Theres no harm running without the Aux belt, but as said the pully must be there...

You have confirmed that the Aux belt Spring tensioner IS knackered, and DOES need changing, as it is what has dug the groove in one edge of the Aux belt, and split it from the other half..

It will be false to simply fit another aux belt, as it will only happen again.

Paul

mattiker · Post by **mattiker** » 27 Dec 2010, 11:49

Thanks paul.

I had planned to replace the worn aux belt tensioner - I just wanted to see if the engine worked first before I spent more money on it. You're right I didn't replace the bottom pulley. If I refit the belt then tension it pretty tight - I found I could use a 3/8th ratchet socket on it and wedge it against the bulk head whilst I tightened the locking bolt - then refit the bottom pulley - do you think that would be ok?

Cheers!