Citroen Relay engine swap XUD advice

spider · Post by **spider** » 09 Dec 2010, 20:08

It can be a right *"$!"

to put back in.

You can make a tool to help you although it does not fit every model due to space issues (mainly you have to remove a couple of bolts to fit the tool)

Post by **CitroJim** » 09 Dec 2010, 20:50

warren555 wrote: Fingers crossed that all goes well.

Fingers crossed here too Warren

For goodness sake check that pump though. If it is seized, well, I don't need to say any more do I?

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 10 Dec 2010, 00:52

warren555 wrote:Thanks for the information and the photograph which is a great help.

Thank jgra1 for that one

I found that picture extremely handy too when doing my head job.
I believe getting that spring back in involved someone standing on a pry bar whilst I tried to bolt the tensioner back on.

CitroJim wrote:For goodness sake check that pump though. If it is seized, well, I don't need to say any more do I?

I'll drink to that

-Alex

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 10 Dec 2010, 17:06

Slow day today.
Got the belt but now need to get a 22mm socket to remove crankshaft flywheel. Will post back when belt is on.

Jim, how would I go about checking the staus of the fuel pump? I think you are very close to the mark as the original diagnosis was that the pump was faulty.

Just an aside. If you looked at the photographs I put on Photobucket, you will see that the timing belt is "hollow" between the teeth. That is to say that the teeth are not solid ruber but are more of an upside down U shapes.
The belt I bought today has sold rubber grooves.

My question is, assuming there is no damage to my engine, could the "hollow" grooves have saved my bacon in that they stripped away as a fail safe rather then forcing the engine to continue turning.
It makes little difference now, but just for my own curiosity.
Cheers,
Warren

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Dec 2010, 18:43

warren555 wrote: Jim, how would I go about checking the staus of the fuel pump? I think you are very close to the mark as the original diagnosis was that the pump was faulty.

It depends on the pump type Warren. If it is a Lucas then it should spin over very freely indeed just with and pressure on the drive sprocket. Don't worry if you hear some little 'tinkles' as it spins as this is just the governor weights flying around. As I say, these pumps have have a shear section in the drive to prevent engine damage in case of pump seizure. If this has sheared than the pump will spin over with absolutely no resistance whatsoever. If good, you will feel some slight changes of resistance as it is spun over.

If a Bosch then it's a very different kettle of fish. It will feel very stiff and you'll be hard pressed to spin it by hand and normally a spanner on the end of the sprocket nut will be needed. Don't just screw on the nut without the sprocket and woodruff key in place or you'll never get the nut off again!

Apply a spanner and then you should feel four very distinct 'compressions' just as you would;d turning over an engine with a spanner on the crank pulley. Between compressions it should turn fairly easily.

This is not a test of operation, just a test it is not seized. It is possible to bench test it in a basic way by rigging up a little header tank on the fuel supply line and energising the stoop solenoid. If good, after a lot of rotations to fill the pump, four nice jets of fluid should squirt out of the delivery valves in turn.

If you do this, DON'T use diesel. Either use vegetable oil or very thin oil. Diesel is VERY dangerous when used like this. I use Citroen hydraulic fluid (LHM).

The picture below shows a bosch pump under test in the manner described....

I used a funnel as a header tank and a plastic line on the return line to save a lot of mess. You will need to spin the pump until test oil flows from the return line and then shortly after, jets should spurt out of the delivery ports and can spray about six feet.

The design of cambelts have changed over the years. The profile you have is supposed to sit better in the sprocket teeth and give better control of tension as it wears...

Sadly, it has nothing to do with engine protection...

Post by **myglaren** » 10 Dec 2010, 20:59

What is the danger if using diesel to test the pump Jim?

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Dec 2010, 21:22

myglaren wrote:What is the danger if using diesel to test the pump Jim?

Two reasons Steve. Firstly, if you are sensitised to it and get it all over your hands it can cause contact-dermatitis and secondly, the jets can issue from the delivery vales at a good old pressure. Diesel under pressure can cut skin like a knife and can inject diesel deep into tissue as a result. The injury this may cause can be very nasty indeed and take a long time to heal. The risk is a a lot smaller with thin oil or veg oil.

Professional diesel shops use a special test oil and never spray diesel around. Spraying it can cause an aerosol that may well be flammable too although I'm surmising here. Again, the risk with oil is smaller.

Generally, unless you KNOW FOR CERTAIN your skin is OK when in contact with diesel, don't take a chance and always wear nitrile (not latex) gloves when dealing with any aspect of diesel equipment. That's why garages provide disposable gloves for customers filling up diesel cars. Not because it's smelly!

Dermatitis is something best not experienced

Post by **myglaren** » 10 Dec 2010, 21:34

Thanks for that Jim, all useful stuff to know.
They were things that I hadn't considered. I was thinking along the lines of needing a flame thrower to ignite diesel and getting it in the eyes, which most people would endeavour to avoid.

The injection through the skin was something I hadn't expected from a bare pump although I was aware of similar dangers with an HP closed system, petrol or diesel and even suspension.

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 10 Dec 2010, 21:57

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the information on the pumps. If I have done my homework properly, the Bosch is prefered for veg purposes. I am not planning on running veg so with any luck it is the Lucas which sounds a little easier to work on.

To be honest, if it turns out the pump is not seized but still not working, I will try find a replacement. I am pushing my luck with what I am doing now and don't fancy my chances opening and repairing the fuel pump. Not that it's more critical that what I am doing but too many little parts and I am a bit mutton handed.
Visions of little springs and needles flying off never to be found again.

I hope to get stuck in this weekend and will post again when I have finished (that could be me or the van).

Once again, thanks all for the sage advice.

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 11 Dec 2010, 16:27

Nothing done today, but did manage to go out and check the fuel pump. It does turn and has some good uniform resistance followed like when you turn an engine over by hand.

Following Jim's description, I believe this makes it a working Bosch fuel pump

More to follow tomorrow when hopefully I will have made substantial progress.

Cheers,
Warren

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 12 Dec 2010, 15:49

Okay. So I have the crankshaft pulley off and am now able to remove the timing belt cover. I have a new water pump on order and should be ready to re-assemble before the next snow falls.
Can anyone tell me where the timing marks are on the crankshaft?

Alex, if you are still following this, why would the auto-tensioner spring fall out if it is so hard to get in and I take it the pendulum arm on the tensioner should be able to move to allow the spring to tension the belt? On my van the arm that is operated by the auto spring is rock solid with no movement at all.
Is this right?

Cheers,
Warren

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 12 Dec 2010, 16:18

Aye, still here.

There isn't a timing mark on that side, I haven't done this yet, but the BoL says you have to lock the flywheel with an 8mm peg through a hole near the starter motor and turn the engine until it slides through the TDC hole in the flywheel.

Also that is a peculiar one, usually I'd only expect that thing to pop out if the tensioner arm has been taken off. If you didn't loosen the tensioner to get the belt off, then yes it's normal that it doesn't move.
How on earth that spring got free is beyond me...

-Alex

warren555 · Post by **warren555** » 12 Dec 2010, 16:31

Sorry, wild goose chase. I have had a really blonde moment.
The spring sits inside the engine mounting, so when the mounting is taken off to get at the timing belt, it falls out of it's own accord.

Thanks for the heads up on the timing marks. By the middle of the week I hope to have everying back together and will know if my Christmas will be be merry or morose.

Warren

Chlorate · Post by **Chlorate** » 12 Dec 2010, 16:38

Aah right there we go.

Hoping to get my new belt on this week too, just waiting on Tates Citroen to post my new tappet shims.

Fingers crossed for both of us

-Alex

spider · Post by **spider** » 12 Dec 2010, 16:40

Ah yes, if you remove the mounting itself from the engine, it will come out as the tensioner roller 'arm' stops it normally. The spring / plunger live in the mounting. Take the opportunity to clean (gentle emery) the plunger if needed.

There is a tool you can buy or make (I made one) to help you put it back but its possible without. The tool replaces two bolts in the mounting so if you cannot get those right out (not just enough to undo it, I mean actually remove them completely in-situ) the tool will not really help.

Regarding the hole to time it, as above there's a hole in the block behind the starter motor. There is a proper tool but if you cannot find it:

Remove the starter (disconnect battery!) , you do not in most cases need to remove its electrical connections, just undo the three bolts and the starter will move an inch or so "out" and sit on the pipework. You will then see the hole. Tool / bolt must be relatively free to slide into / out that hole, if its tight then you will struggle to get it to go into the flywheel. Gently emery the tool if needed and put a drop of oil on it (just a drop) if needed.

I have to do this on my 205 as although I do have the tool, due to a pattern starter the PO fitted, it will not clear it (that and there not being any space as the radiator is quite close on mine)