Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

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CitroJim
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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by CitroJim » 08 Aug 2010, 17:30

romie wrote:.. I need to know if the pumps plunger is going back and forth I suppose.
Yes, but it's down to blind faith once the pump is back together. You can observe it moving with the head removed and peering down inside.

You should find the plunger will go on only one way as it has a pin drive from the cam plate. There is a shim between the plunger and camplate. If this was lost, that would cause it to stop pumping. I'm worried you say it can go two ways....

Also, is the delivery regulator sleeve on the right way round? The rebated edge should face the head. If it's around the wrong way that too might account for it as the plunger will not be able to fill.

Finally, are you sure the delivery sleeve is correctly engaged with the governor lever? It's dead easy to dislodge it when refitting the distributor head.

You should see potent jets shoot out of the delivery valves even when turning the pump over slowly by hand (spanner). I've crudely bench tested them like this in the past...

In fact. that's not a bad idea, set up a funnel feeding test oil into the pump (I use hydraflush or filtered second-hand clean LHM), energise the stop solenoid, spin until test oil exits the return line and by then each delivery valve should "fire" in turn as you rotate the pump.

If all is good, when you rotate it by hand you should feel four very distinct and hard compressions...

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by CitroJim » 08 Aug 2010, 17:37

Romie,

If it's any help, I have a pump in bits on my bench at the moment so if you need anything for reference, just shout.

If it'll help still further, I'll PM you my phone number or you can find it in this month's Citroenian magazine if you're a CCC member ...

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by romie » 08 Aug 2010, 22:46

You should find the plunger will go on only one way as it has a pin drive from the cam plate. There is a shim between the plunger and camplate. If this was lost, that would cause it to stop pumping. I'm worried you say it can go two ways....
That's true the plunger has a pin that locates in the cam plate and can only go on one way... but the cam plate has two lugs that fit into the yoke and so the cam plate can go two ways :s

Image
Also, is the delivery regulator sleeve on the right way round? The rebated edge should face the head. If it's around the wrong way that too might account for it as the plunger will not be able to fill.
ah yes, I made sure of that :)

Just to note there's a spring between the yoke and the cam plate. It's just that I've not seen any exploded diagrams with this in.
Finally, are you sure the delivery sleeve is correctly engaged with the governor lever? It's dead easy to dislodge it when refitting the distributor head.
I did try and keep an eye on that, but I'll triple check when I get the damn thing bolted to the bench as you suggested.

You should see potent jets shoot out of the delivery valves even when turning the pump over slowly by hand (spanner). I've crudely bench tested them like this in the past...
Fantastic! Right I'll do that.. will save soo much time and my sanity :0)

Thanks again for that very generous gesture, I'll have to check out this CCC :)

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by MikeT » 09 Aug 2010, 10:44

I was going to suggest you check the lever arm nipple was correctly inserted into the control collar, if you still had no joy priming the pump.

By your investigation so far, I think we can narrow it down to the distributor head and plunger system.

As Jim states, there should be a shim between plunger and camplate as well as shims behind the mains springs (in the head).

I think these are what the Bosch Tech meant that needs re-calibrating? Did your kit come with any instructions or a spec sheet?

The spring shims need to be set for correct spring tension and the plunger shim set for correct head clearance.

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by CitroJim » 09 Aug 2010, 11:16

The shim behind the plunger (pumping element) should be OK as this and the head has not been replaced.

I'd fully go along with what you say Mike in all respects but I can't see the shims behind the big springs causing a non start.

The other thing that occurs is if the governor levers have not engaged properly with the levers up inside the head and if the throttle spring assembly has not correctly engaged with the levers on reassembly. You know how tricky it is. This could leave the pump in a permanent emergency stop condition if you think about how the emergency stop lever works on the internal mechanism.

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by MikeT » 09 Aug 2010, 12:11

CitroJim wrote:The shim behind the plunger (pumping element) should be OK as this and the head has not been replaced.
Agreed.

As for the spring shims, I too doubt it can cause lack of injection but it might reduce the delivery pressure/amount sufficiently to cause starting problems? However, my concern is that out-of-tolerance spring tension might cause another breakage once the pump is running again (too tight) or allow the plunger to kiss the head cap (too weak).

Romie, to check the plunger is moving, there's a timing cover cap in the centre of the distributor head. If you rotate the pump by hand, you should be able to observe the plunger's stroke through this hole.

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by KennyW » 09 Aug 2010, 16:41

Hi Romie,

Have tried the bench test with spanner and manually turning pump, if the camplate was fitted wrong no fuel would be fired out.

I can testify to this as i fitted the cam plate wrong on my pump during rebuild.

Have you fitted the governer plunger back to the correct position as this also has an effect.

If you have checked all of the above I would agree with Jim and Mike lever nipple as it can easily pop out on rebuild. Likewise when fitting the distributor back on beware of the distributor plunger and collar for jumping from the Link element. The plunger retrun springs are can also be akward.

Kenny

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by romie » 11 Aug 2010, 00:12

Right, thanks everyone for your responses.

I've got the pump in a vice on the bench.
I was going to suggest you check the lever arm nipple was correctly inserted into the control collar, if you still had no joy priming the pump.
This is definitely inserted as it can be seen through the pump control cover. And it can be shifted back and forth on the plunger over the plungers ports using the control levers.
The other thing that occurs is if the governor levers have not engaged properly with the levers up inside the head and if the throttle spring assembly has not correctly engaged with the levers on reassembly
Yup, got the flat bit through the slot in the lever.
Also attached the small spring on the fast/Idle lever.
Romie, to check the plunger is moving, there's a timing cover cap in the centre of the distributor head. If you rotate the pump by hand, you should be able to observe the plunger's stroke through this hole.
Opened this. The plunger could be seen to be moving back and forth whilst rotating.

After filling pump with diesel and allowing the fuel to eject from the return banjo, the high pressure chamber behind the bolt, (the bolt being still removed), can be seen to eject fuel on each 1/4 turn rotation of the drive shaft. So operation is good up to here as long as the amount of ejected fuel is correct. I better get a video of this up.

I still just don't get a proper output while turning the drive shaft by hand. I say proper as one in 30 turns I might get a very small weak jet from one of the output valves - otherwise nothing. I'll get a video of this up as well.

I'm still pondering..

So we're closing down on possibilities - possible causes-:

1. The fuel in the compression chamber is flowing back out of the cut-off port past the control sleeve - even tho I've held the control sleeve in many positions over the cut-off valve and also tried it with the pump control cover in place with both springs attached.

2. The fuel in the compression chamber cannot exit through the delivery valves.

3. The fuel in the compression chamber is going back up delivery passage.

Right I'm going to try and get up early and get videos of these points.

Hmm

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by romie » 17 Aug 2010, 19:36

ok, so after a very long night/morning, I had the pump apart (again), and concluded that the only thing that could be preventing the fuel from being ejected from the output valves was the control sleeve and the spill port.

I needed to shift the control sleeve along the plunger slightly to get it to block the hole more.

I had to hacksaw the factory set crimp off the power adjustment screw then turn it clockwise slightly.

Bhaahahh - tickover :p

So the high pressure fuel was bypassing the delivery valve via the spill port - ugh.

The throttle didn't have any effect until I did some more fine adjustments but after much setting and re-setting we have a runner again! yay.

So to conclude replaced springs, adjusted power adjustment screw = runner :D

Joy.

I Hope this thread helps others in my position, cheers for all the help everyone. I'll be open to any questions if needed

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by CitroJim » 17 Aug 2010, 21:08

Excellent news Romie :D :D :D

Shows how critical that adjustment actually is.

Did you not fully remove the screw when rebuilding then as I find it makes the task of replacing the head so, so much easier as it gets in the way of slipping the throttle linkage into the slot in the top of the governor lever...

maybe you did not remove the head at all to replace the springs and just had the distributor head off.

When I remove the power screw I always make a very careful note of it's original position.

Still, delighted all is now good and happy again :D

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by MikeT » 18 Aug 2010, 12:38

Good man and I'm glad it's sorted at last.

But it looks like I've misinterpreted the book and will have to go back to school and revise some more.

I always thought, until the engine starts and the governor acts through centrifugal force, that the start of injection quantity was the equivelant of full accelerator regardless. Could it be the accelerator shaft was misfitted by one spline?

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by AbangCorp » 18 Aug 2010, 14:17

suddenly my car is giving me a headache
i began to think my fuel pump is giving me a problem

it miss fire / jerking on any speed especially while accelerating
this is becoming even more frequent

just now it stop completely. my battery is also just charge with 12.3x volt on multimeter. it is still 12.3x volt but becoming slower to crank it start until it just cant start

so may i ask, if your battery is weak, could it causing the jerking as what i understand from manual, electricity is being fed all the time to the stop solenoid. stop the electric signal it will stop the engine

my mechanic says it will not eventually because of blocked injector as it will all the time cause problem

so do i need to rebuild my fuel pump?
my previous owner already modify original fuel filter with japanese type and also use normal oil filter as a replacement filter, recently changed

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by myglaren » 18 Aug 2010, 20:05

AbangCorp wrote:suddenly my car is giving me a headache
i began to think my fuel pump is giving me a problem

it miss fire / jerking on any speed especially while accelerating
this is becoming even more frequent

just now it stop completely. my battery is also just charge with 12.3x volt on multimeter. it is still 12.3x volt but becoming slower to crank it start until it just cant start

so may i ask, if your battery is weak, could it causing the jerking as what i understand from manual, electricity is being fed all the time to the stop solenoid. stop the electric signal it will stop the engine

my mechanic says it will not eventually because of blocked injector as it will all the time cause problem

so do i need to rebuild my fuel pump?
my previous owner already modify original fuel filter with japanese type and also use normal oil filter as a replacement filter, recently changed
C5s are notorious for throwing up faults when the battery starts to fail or if voltage is less that optimal.
No idea about Xantias though - I'd imagine non multiplexed cars would be less susceptible. Can't remember your model though unfortunately.
Low voltage could presumably negatively affect the ECU

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by romie » 19 Aug 2010, 13:57

Did you not fully remove the screw when rebuilding then as I find it makes the task of replacing the head so, so much easier as it gets in the way of slipping the throttle linkage into the slot in the top of the governor lever...
I removed the screw to re-assemble, but on re-assembly I could not adjust the sleeve position in the direction I wanted until I hack-sawed the factory fitted crip off :)
I always thought, until the engine starts and the governor acts through centrifugal force, that the start of injection quantity was the equivelant of full accelerator regardless. Could it be the accelerator shaft was misfitted by one spline?
Hmm, after much deliberation while re-building the pump, I found the sleeve wouldn't go quite far enough over the spill port while governor was at rest and the throttle lever was in any of it's possible positions :s

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Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

Post by MikeT » 19 Aug 2010, 17:47

romie wrote:
I always thought, until the engine starts and the governor acts through centrifugal force, that the start of injection quantity was the equivelant of full accelerator regardless. Could it be the accelerator shaft was misfitted by one spline?
Hmm, after much deliberation while re-building the pump, I found the sleeve wouldn't go quite far enough over the spill port while governor was at rest and the throttle lever was in any of it's possible positions :s
That explains why it wouldn't start. Start quantity should be maximum quantity. I guess it's no longer visible to you - so we'll just have to assume your max fuel adjustment now allows complete closure of the spill port at engine standstill.

Are you going to tune the pump now? 8-)