Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 died whilst run' - Def Solved!!

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 16 Jul 2010, 15:52

I am 100% confident it's not pumping the correct amount on cranking, no doubt about it.

Can you disconnect the return hose and collect the returned fuel as it's cranking? There should be a significant amount compared to what you're seeing out the injector pipes.

romie · Post by **romie** » 23 Jul 2010, 10:52

Thanks MikeT I'll get that sorted out. In the meantime here's another video of what's coming out of the pumps distributor head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-gFWNGZE84

Does this follow on with your thoughts that it's not pumping the correct amount on cranking?

Cheers

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 23 Jul 2010, 12:18

Hi romie,

That's not what I would expect to see from a working pump though not having witnessed one personally, I can't be sure.

I think citrojim has done that test though, so he should be able to advise.

To me, that looks like the amount injected at idle, but until the engine starts and the centrifugal governor weights take effect, the design of the pump is to inject a full shot - equal to full throttle at high rpm. Then, as soon as the engine catches, the governor comes into play and fuelling is reduced to that allowed for idle.

First thing that comes to mind is the fast idle spring has somehow detached but again, it's more an educated guess. I'm not sure but you might be able to test my theory by seeing if the idle/fast idle lever (back of pump) resists moving?

romie · Post by **romie** » 23 Jul 2010, 14:50

ah, that's an interesting and informative observation MikeT.

I've just checked the external fast idle lever.

It was against the fast idle adjustment screw.

Releasing the fast idle cable the lever could be rocked back and forth around 3-4mm back and forth between the 'fast idle' and 'idle' adjustment screws.

The external idle spring was operating correctly.

If these videos show that not enough fuel is being output from the distributor then that fuel pump is going to have to come off!

This is going to be an interesting learning curve :s

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 23 Jul 2010, 15:27

Damn! I forget there's an external spring too. The only other way to test the internal spring hasn't come adrift is with the engine running.

Did you see my post on the other thread, regarding the inlet and outlet banjos? If they're transversed, the inlet will be severly restricted which might (again, I'm not sure) result in insufficient injected fuel.

romie · Post by **romie** » 29 Jul 2010, 15:28

SOLVED!!!

ok, so that injector pump WAS faulty.

Having removed and stripped the pump on the bench I found that both plunger-return springs had broken, (interestingly both had two breaks in the same locations).

So if anyone shows a video of a 'weak' output like this one, this 'could' be a possible place to look.

Bosch said it WAS a serviceable part and so I should have the plunger spring 'kit', (wonder what could be in the 'kit' apart from, er, two springs?), arriving in a few days time at a cost of around £10.

They also suggested that they would need to calibrate the pump after I fitted the springs. The only thing that I figured that could change would be the strength of the springs which by the looks of their operation wouldn't change the pumps operation very much so I cheerfully declined their pricey offer in favour of 'we'll see how it goes'.

Here are some pictures of the dismantle and broken plunger-return springs.

>>>>>> BROKEN PLUNGER-RETURN SPRINGS <<<<<<<<

Many thanks to everyone for all your advice with this, I'll put up a video of what a healthy Citroen Xantia 1.9TD Estate 1996 Bosch distributor injection pumps output should look like after I've re-fitted everything and proved that it runs.

Cheers again

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 29 Jul 2010, 17:29

Great news and thanks for the feedback.
Who did you contact for the spares, I'd like to check them out?

Will you be performing a post-mortem on likely possible causes? From your pics, it looks nice and clean so we can't blame wvo or other contaminants. I can't see evidence of localised overheating either. I can imagine that if a spring broke, the plunger would break and vice versa but what was the initial cause as they're very reliable pumps?

Post by **CitroJim** » 29 Jul 2010, 20:12

I've seen those springs break before..

Good work Romie

Calibration is required but you can do that yourself very carefully. After reassembly, if necessary, adjust the maximum delivery screw (the one facing toward the distributor head) so that the engine will just red-line under moderate load and then refine, along with the throttle stop screw so that it will just red-line off-load on the snap acceleration test.

Don't go mad with it or the engine is in danger of over-revving. That screw sets the maximum excursion of the governor.

How much for new springs?

romie · Post by **romie** » 30 Jul 2010, 16:18

Thanks guys

For the spares I went to Bosch website, looked for closest dealer and talked to these people.

ALLPARTS AUTO OXFORD
Address
Unit 78/80 Sandford Lane Ind Est
OXFORD
OX1 5RP
Phone 01865 327555
Fax 01865 327920

The spring 'kit' should be around £10 - still can't see what else will be in that but I'll put up an inventory if it's a bunch of new rubber bits.... A friend said the word 'kit' puts 50% on the price

Cars done 184,000 miles so I'm hoping the breaks were just from wear and tear.

Cheers for the extra thoughts on the interior state of the pump and the calibration heads-up that's one more thing I'll not have to spend a few days pondering over :p

romie · Post by **romie** » 07 Aug 2010, 18:35

OK, so pumps back together and in car.

The pipes going to the injectors are attached to the pumps distributor but left off at the injector end.

I've pumped the hand fuel pump to fill the injector pump with fuel until the hand pump bulb went stiff.

But after cranking the engine over for a few minutes (whilst still using the hand pump), I'm getting nothing out at the injectors.

How long would you say it would take to get fuel back round the system and out through to the injectors?

I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced replacing the injector pump and has a few tips on bleeding the fuel through to the injectors?

Many thanks

MikeT · Post by **MikeT** » 07 Aug 2010, 19:31

Loosen the return banjo and see if hand-priming causes diesel spill.

The system is self-bleeding but being a diesel it has to be given more patience than a petrol.

I intentionally ran my tank dry and took a long time, including several starts and stalls before it finally bled itself fully.

Post by **CitroJim** » 07 Aug 2010, 20:01

Yes, indeed. As Mike says, pump the bulb well and often.

Xac and I have just swapped his pump for a totally empty one (bar a film of LHM used in rebuilding) and it took a lot of cranking to get fuel through. The pump body holds about 500mL and it won't start until it is full and transfer pressure has built.

Sufficient cranking to noticeably run the battery low. It seemed to help just a tad to loosen off one injector union whilst cranking. It helps let some air out. Xac's started on one pot but the others very quickly chimed in and it settled to running like a Swiss watch.

Check your stop solenoid is definitely working bu hold a screwdriver to your ear with the other end on the distributor head. Get someone to operate ignition/immobiliser and you should hear it click.

romie · Post by **romie** » 08 Aug 2010, 15:25

Hmm, loosened the return banjo, pumped hand pump - diesel flowed out from the banjo.

I took the stop valve out and the pump was full of diesel to the top of stop valve hole. Pumping the hand pump caused the diesel to pour over the top.

Removed stop valve internals and re-fitted stop valve to block hole.

Took all pipes off from the pumps distributor head, turned her over - no sign of any fuel from distributor head.

I noticed that the cam plate in the pump could be positioned 180 degrees out of phase. I've removed pump, turned plate 180 degrees. Re-fitted pump - same problem, no fuel - no joy - ugh.

I'm missing something here.. don't know what yet? ugh

romie · Post by **romie** » 08 Aug 2010, 15:43

.. I need to know if the pumps plunger is going back and forth I suppose.

Anyone know of a method of detecting this? - I know I can't put a finger over the pump delivery valve.. maybe a transparent tube with some fuel in - I should see the fuel jump up the tube?

Anyone done something like this?

ho-hum

romie · Post by **romie** » 08 Aug 2010, 15:57

Ah, here are some pics of the Spring Kit and the like: