Xantias - a dying breed...

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

the_weaver
Posts: 438
Joined: 13 May 2008, 00:01
Location: UK
My Cars:

Post by the_weaver »

What are the Citroens with HDi engines like for home servicing? Is there a difference between early cars and more recent cars in terms of ability to do work at home? Is it a case of "XUD - can be home serviced", HDi - can't be home serviced" or is it more to do with the introduction of computers in more recent cars.

Paul
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

The Hdi engines are more complicated and difficult to service due largely to completely electronically controlled injection. The injection pressures are excedingly high making home servicing more risky, and although it appears that some HDi's are doing high mileages, the cost of repair if something does go wrong is a great deal more.

Peter
the_weaver
Posts: 438
Joined: 13 May 2008, 00:01
Location: UK
My Cars:

Post by the_weaver »

Peter

It looks like I'm sticking with XUD's then. In 17 years and 217K miles the only thing I've done to my ZX is replace one glowplug (apart from the usual oil, antifreeze, filters, cambelts etc). It's an amazing engine.

Paul
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

Peter.N. wrote:The Hdi engines are more complicated and difficult to service due largely to completely electronically controlled injection.
Strange one that, servicing is if anything easier on an HDi as when changing the timing belt the pump doesn't need to be locked/timed with anything else. Normal servicing on an HDi is no different from an XUD and as for these complicated electronics causing problems I've not had any such issue on mine which has now done 147k, the only thing that's gone wrong is the lift pump in the fuel tank, a very simple job of replacement.

However I could mention the issue of glowplugs requiring regular replacement on XUD's (every 30k) and how unpleasant that job is :lol:

I have both HDi and XUD engined Xantia's and for me there is no comparison, the HDi 110 is far more flexible/powerful and at least 7 mpg more economical so should an HDi give any grief the money saved on fuel will pay for a repair. XUD's are awful for turbo lag, don't expect to accelerate in second gear unless the car is travelling at over 20 mph which is rather unhelpful when pulling out of a 'T' junction, you're faced with either dropping it into 1st then having to quickly change up again or waiting for an unusually large gap to pull into.

HDi's have now been around for long enough for all potential issue's to have raised their head with a well known solution being available, as far as I can see the only people who say leave HDi's alone are those who are frightened/lack experience of them.
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
RichardW
Forum Treasurer
Posts: 10812
Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl
x 982

Post by RichardW »

HDi's are French designed and tested - ie drive them like you stole them! They seem to thrive on this sort of useage, and it tends to be the ones that are treated gently that give trouble - which is a shame really, as it just means I have to go out and rag mine all the time :P Run them hard on decent diesel, do not mis fuel them petrol, take care with fuel filter changes, and they should outlive the car.

In fact, so strong is the XUD bottom end, that it is used essentially unchanged in the HDi :lol:

The 1.9TD in the Xantia, whilst making better progress than it ever deserved to, it was hard work - keeping it over 3k if you wanted it to go on winding roads, whereas the HDi 110 just pulls from 1500 - I rarely get it over 3k, and on winding roads it's just great. Near 50mpg too. I am hoping to get at least another 3years / 50k out of mine - my exhaust troubles notwithstanding..... :cry:
Richard W
Citroenmad
Posts: 8125
Joined: 04 Dec 2008, 22:08
Location: Northeast
My Cars: 07 Citroen C6 V6 HDi Exclusive - Red
07 Citroen C5 HDi VTR - Red
09 Citroen C3 1.4i VTR - Silver
01 Citroen Saxo 1.1i Forte - Mango Orange
93 Ford Mondeo 2.0i GLX
19 Hyundai i10
x 110

Post by Citroenmad »

I agree about HDis in that they rarely cause any real problems. Basic servicing is very easy and they are not all that complicated to work on. A 2.0 8v 110 in a C5 leaves a lot of room around the engine so most things are very easy to get to.

A lot of problems with injectors is often put down to using poor quality fuels, which lack lubrication. A local diesel specialist says cheap fuels are what keeps him in business. I only ever use Shell or BP when i cant find a Shell. Our SX C5 has only ever been run on Shell or BP through its life, it has now done 124K miles with no problems at all.

True a XUD will run on pretty much anything, HDis wont take kindly to veg oil use :lol: But since they offer more MPG there wont be much difference.

HDis are much cheaper for road tax too. Even some C4 HDis are only £30 a year to tax.

Xantia HDis dont have a dual mass flywheel, so there is one thing which wont go wrong.

I like HDis, very good engines in my opinion. You only need to take a quick look around other forums and find out how much trouble other manufacturer diesel engines cause to find that out. We rarely have a post with someone having big and expensive problems with their HDi. If there is one it tends to be the 1.4 16v HDi 90, which does seem like the weak link in the chain.

My HDi gets driven hard, it does seem to thrive on it and ive had no problems (touch wood) as yet.
Chris
07 Citroen C6 V6 HDi Exclusive - Red
07 Citroen C5 HDi VTR - Red
09 Citroen C3 1.4i VTR - Silver
01 Citroen Saxo 1.1i Forte - Mango Orange
.
93 Ford Mondeo 2.0i GLX
19 Hyundai i10
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

OK I'm outvoted :oops: most of my experience has been with two friends who ran them, albiet one was in a Mondeo, and the reports on Honest Johns forum. One friend had a 607 which cost him literarly thousands in engine repairs and the other had DMF failure and other problems at about 60k so he got rid of it.

There were many reports of fuel lift pump failure on early ones, in fact I also had a friend with that problem, potentially wrecking the injection system. The cost of replacement injectors which were very rarely needed on an XUD were at least ten times the price, and I believe, correct me if I'm wrong (which I'm sure you will) :D have to be programmed to the engine, not a DIY job.

With regards Richards comments re the XUD, that doesn't apply to the 2.1 which pulls like a train almost down to tickover, much better in fact than my six cylinder BMW, they will also do 300,000 miles with virtually no attention other than a head gasket at about 150,000.

Maybe my opinion has been formed because of the problems with the early ones and is not justified but DMF failures on those that have them still seem to be quite common and injectors seem to need replacing at considerably lowere mileages than the XUD and at considerably higher cost

My main gripe though is the electronics, I couldn't live with a car that could stop for no reason and I can't repair myself.

Grumpy old man.
User avatar
Xaccers
Posts: 7654
Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
My Cars:
x 184

Post by Xaccers »

Mum's got a 90HDi Xsara, Dad had a 90HDi Picasso, both sluggish as hell, even more than Dex was! (2.1TD estate)
If I had to go hdi, I'd get a 110.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)

DIY sphere tool
Citroenmad
Posts: 8125
Joined: 04 Dec 2008, 22:08
Location: Northeast
My Cars: 07 Citroen C6 V6 HDi Exclusive - Red
07 Citroen C5 HDi VTR - Red
09 Citroen C3 1.4i VTR - Silver
01 Citroen Saxo 1.1i Forte - Mango Orange
93 Ford Mondeo 2.0i GLX
19 Hyundai i10
x 110

Post by Citroenmad »

What age of Mundaneo was it Peter? IIRC the only Mondeo with the PSA engine is the latest, ugliest and biggest Mondeo. Previous Mondeos used a Ford TDCi engine, which was a chain driven Ford unit and not a HDi.

The 607 was probably a 2.2HDi, again not the best HDi but it was aclaimed to be when it first appeared in the C5. 16v technology etc. But as time went on they have had problems with injectors (again im guessing fuel used has some effect here) which is a problem in itself as they are far from easy to remove on the 2.2, it often requires a replacement head. This 2.2 also was an early to have the FAp filtering system, which can cause problems, not so much problems but its somehting else which needs servicing.

DMF can fail at any time it would seem. Some people on here are heading towards 200K with the same DMF, others have been replaced at 60 onwards. Yes its somehting to think about but i would say the majority of diesel cars have these now and quite a lot of petrol cars have them too. It could cause an extra cost but they may well last the life of the car too, depending on how they are used or abused. So thats somehting we are going to have to get used to.

I had a 2.0HDi 90 Peugeot 206, it was a lively enough car and would perform well but i would not want that engine in anything bigger. Heaven knows what a 90bhp C5 estate packed with family members, luggage and maybe a caravan on tow would perform like. I guess the caraven would need a substantial engine fitted to it!

So, if your wanting a good HDi, avoid the 2.0HDi 8v 90 as its a bit/lot slow, get the 2.2 if you like the extra performance, but bear in mind the extra complications it has over the 2.0 8v, economy is rarely close to offical figures it would seem. The best buy is the 2.0 HDi 110, it has enough perfomance and economy is excellent, without trying too hard i can get 50MPG - actual. Reliability is among the very best of modern diesels and it is now a well proven, smooth and quiet engine which offers great flexability and refinement. Not to mention a remap will put the 2.0HDi 110 around or over the same BHP as the 2.2, but also it could increase the MPG of an already impressively efficient engine.

The later 1.6 and 2.0 16V HDi units are good, just about all have FAP filters but these are improved and are much less hassle than the ones from the older 2.2 engine. Ive not heard many horror stories of either and they seem good for the mileage. OUr 2.016V HDi C5 estate is a lovely car to drive, extremely smooth and willing engine, revs nicely, 6 speed box is great and makes the car even more refined. It also does 50MPG quit easily.

As far as the 2.1TD goes, yes it pulls well but it doesnt deliver the same flexability of the HDis and it is less refined. It has a much shorter useful rev band than the HDi and it does smoke under hard acceleration - unlike the HDis. However, when your in the rev range performance is exactly the same as a 2.0 110 C5 (ive tried this) and economy is only slightly worse.

Im very much in favour of HDis :D But i do like the older XUDs, i agree they are more simple and possibly reliable. However, HDis are not as bad as some people believe.
Chris
07 Citroen C6 V6 HDi Exclusive - Red
07 Citroen C5 HDi VTR - Red
09 Citroen C3 1.4i VTR - Silver
01 Citroen Saxo 1.1i Forte - Mango Orange
.
93 Ford Mondeo 2.0i GLX
19 Hyundai i10
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

Hi Chris

Fair comment, you have obviously had a lot more to do with them than I have, the only one that I know of that has done well is my sons father in laws 206, thats coming up to 200k but its only been driven by him and fairly gently, that suffered a complete breakdown, but only once, which was cured by a reprogramme.

I think what has biased me against modern cars is the use of computer technology, if your computer crashes, no harm done, except perhaps to your blood pressure, but on a car it is at the least inconvenient and at worst down right dangerous, as has been adequatly demonstrated but the likes of Toyota.

Another thing is mutiplex wiring, a friend of mine works for a coach company, they have had so many problems, now they specify that all their vehicles are hard wired.

I suppose its got a lot to do with the era I grew up in, my first car a pre war Ford had less wiring in the whole car than my XM has in the drivers door :? They were so easy to repair in those days 8-)

In the last few years of my trade as a TV engineer, microprocessor control was creeping in and it was a nightmare, sometimes causing sets to be prematurely scrapped as it is now with cars.

I think that the 2.1 is a brilliant engine, possibly the best IDI ever produced, not maybe as smooth as the BMW but more economical and flexible and almost bombproof.

Gripe over

Peter
rmunns
Posts: 611
Joined: 09 Jul 2009, 22:09
Location: Southern Dordogne, France
My Cars: 2019 C5 Aircross 2litre diesel, auto.
2018 C4 Pic2 Spacetourer auto. Seems nice so far.
2019 C4 Cactus manual. Didn't like it, lots of niggling points. sold.
2011 C4 Picasso excl. - shaping up to be a disaster, bought June 2019. P/X'd
2009 Citroen C5 X7 exclusive, auto, LHD, 207500km (129000miles) now sold
Citroen Xsara Picasso excl. 2004 2.0 Hdi, RHD, 64000miles. (sold)
Citroen C3 Picasso excl. 2016. sold.
Two Xantias, one petrol, one diesel. sold.

In the past: Renault 16 (in about 1977, for a year). With front pass. seat out transported full bathroom suite from Cambridge to Derby!)
Renault 4TL (in 2011, for a year)
x 9

Post by rmunns »

In 1998 or 9 my daughter and her husband turned up to show us their 'new' car. It was an early Xantia and I opined that they had made an error. Just anti-French at the time, especially after I'd had a Renault 16.

Anyway moved here in January 2006, bought a 1998 Xantia 2litre 16V petrol, did 65000miles in 3 years with no problems (just put new spheres on).

Last June changed for a Hdi 90 and have done nothing to it (16000miles in 13 months) other than oil changes.

All in all, very pleased.

In my opinion, good cars from the 80's - 90's are very definitely better than newer cars from the point of view of simplicity. Methinks that manufacturers are working towards making every servicing 'dealers only' as a way of boosting profit.
User avatar
DickieG
Monaco's youngest playboy
Posts: 4877
Joined: 25 Nov 2006, 09:15
Location: Buckinghamshire
My Cars:
x 38

Post by DickieG »

Peter.N. wrote:My main gripe though is the electronics, I couldn't live with a car that could stop for no reason and I can't repair myself.

Grumpy old man.
With the reputation XM's and their electrics have I'd have thought that'd be a good apprenticeship for owning an HDi engined car :lol:
13 Ram 1500 Hemi
14 BMW 535D Tourer
19 BMW i3s
06 C3 Desire 1.4
72 DS 21 EFi Pallas BVH
Stunned Monkey
Posts: 84
Joined: 15 Aug 2008, 23:30
Location:
My Cars:

Post by Stunned Monkey »

I can service my HDi in under 5 minutes, with the one caveat that I remembered to grease the fuel filter cannister seal the last time I did the job, otherwise it has to come out and be undone in the vice. (I'm talking simple oil and the 3 filters here obviously).

The -only- problems I've had in 230,000 miles were a duff MAF sensor, and a blocked vac pump outlet. My recent failed crank pulley was my own stupid fault. Edit: oh, and an engine mount, but that sort of stuff I put down to simple wear and tear.

I've capped off the EGR feed, and knocked the guts out of the cat.

The car is always noticeably peppier after being made to tow a heavy trailer for a couple of hundred miles (could be placebo, I don't think so). Always sails through emissions - capping off the EGR valve has really sorted out the smoking it used to do - and I consistently get 700+ miles on 65 litres of fuel, and I'm a tight fisted sod and use sainsbury's derv.
Last edited by Stunned Monkey on 22 Jul 2010, 19:17, edited 1 time in total.
Martin
-------
Old Faithful: Silver V-reg Xantia HDi Exclusive, died due to tin worm @ 259k miles
New Faithful: Silver W-reg Xantia HDi Exclusive, 169k miles and counting...
Previous: Various BX's, XM V6 24,
Venturi Atlantique 300, Alpine A610
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

True the early ones were bad, but the one my wife wrote off last year had covered 70,000 miles virtually trouble free, since I fitted a head gasket :D :x
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

Martin

Impressive reliability, but when I said 'servicing' I meant repairs, even the XM isn't difficult to service, its a pig to work on though, but the point is you can work on it without all sorts of electronic equipment and an honors degree in electronics.

Peter
Post Reply