LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PLEASE

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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS Citroën C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by cachaciero »

Edit
Damn cut and paste again!
Having done some more research and now having a reliable reference from somebody who routinely uses LHM inplace of LDS because it's cheaper, my advice is don't worry about it, LHM and LDS are identical spec oils, the difference being that LDS is a pure synthetic base and LHM is semi synthetic. The only difference this makes in practice is that LHM may have a slightly higher propensity to sludge over an extended period of time.
Various people have reported mixing LDS and LHM and the only negative effect seems to be a propensity to foam on initial mixing after which the mixture settles down and works fine.

If it worries you change the oil at your leisure but don't worry about trying to flush the last drop off LHM out of the system it won't do any harm.

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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS Citroën C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by CitroJim »

LHM will foam anyway if agitated. Anyone who has bled 'airy' rear brakes will know. Anyone fancy a pint of green beer with a lovely frothy green head on it?

LHM takes years to deteriorate in a system. Trouble is, with LDS in the mix it'll be hard to spot the colour change to say it's going a bit off...
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Post by addo »

I do hope we can now move forward with the above informed commentary.
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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS Citroën C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by cachaciero »

And now to answer the question :-)
fender77 wrote:Hello

I would like to ask some questions about refilling the hydraulic oil,
The seller (unprofessional) parts store, gave me the wrong oil LHM PLUS. Now I need to change To LDS the all hydraulic oil reservoir.
I have a C5 2003 HYDRACTIVE 3 I opened the 2003 pdf file, I didn't found the de-pressurizing and draining- filling- bleeding procedure, I assume it's similar to the 2005 pdf, am I right?
Can't see any reason why there would be much difference.
1. Do I need to de-pressurizing the hydraulic system before changing the oil before draining, filling and bleeding? If yes how I can find the place of the front and the back suspension screw assuming I use the "without diagnostic tools" (page 312 - (2005) %20C5_C8.pdf)? I saw the sketch and I need the macro sketch to find it, how can I do that?
No not if you don't mind having a little of the old oil in the system, if you select the suspension to low i.e. lowest position of the car the majority of the fluid in the system will be returned to the tank, there will still be a small amount of fluid in the pipe work.

2. When draining, filling and bleeding it says to: "place the suspension height control in the "low" position"(page 314), is that mean to the lowest position of the car that say STOP (in the screen display inside my car)?
yes
3. In the draining filling, bleeding procedures what is the part that I get rid from air bubbles, I understand that when making 0.5 bar pressure in the bleeding, the air bubbles have no way to go because the reservoir is all under pressure and the system is close?
When you empty the tank by removing the power steering hose under the wing, the tank will empty completely, BUT if you do nothing else there will be a small amount of fluid in the pipe to the suspension pump, a small amount of fluid in the pump and probably a larger amount in the steering rack. If you really feel the need to get every last drop of the old oil out then all of this pipework needs to be bled through. When the tank is filled with the new oil, you will need to locate the front and rear suspension manifolds which will have a bleed screw on it the same as a brake bleed screw and works the same way. Open the bleed screw, even on low setting there will be some pressure, some oil will come out and the suspension settle even lower (you have to have the car on ramps to do this), if the pump is powered (battery reconnected) the pump should run and more oil will come out of the bleed screw let the oil come out until it is clean and bubble free, close the bleed screw, repeat for the rear.
Now at the tank disconnect the steering return pipe and using a suitable piece of pipe as an extension direct it into a container. Now run the engine, fluid should start to come out of the return, one complete full left full right on the steering wheel should ensure that the old fluid that was in the steering is now returned to the container, stop engine reconnect the return to tank.
As you can see that is quite a lot of work and I don't think is worth doing for getting rid of the small amounts of LHM. I think just draining the tank and re-filling would be more than adequate.
4. After bleeding do I must to do the "checking and topping up the LDS fluid level" (page316) ?
Thank you very much I'm grateful about any help from the professional teem.
If I understand the question after bleeding you will need to top up the LDS, level should be in the bottom of the filler with the suspension on Low.

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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS Citroën C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by THELABMAN »

cachaciero wrote:Edit
Damn cut and paste again!
Having done some more research and now having a reliable reference from somebody who routinely uses LHM inplace of LDS because it's cheaper, my advice is don't worry about it, LHM and LDS are identical spec oils, the difference being that LDS is a pure synthetic base and LHM is semi synthetic. The only difference this makes in practice is that LHM may have a slightly higher propensity to sludge over an extended period of time.
Various people have reported mixing LDS and LHM and the only negative effect seems to be a propensity to foam on initial mixing after which the mixture settles down and works fine.

If it worries you change the oil at your leisure but don't worry about trying to flush the last drop off LHM out of the system it won't do any harm.

cachaciero

Hi Folk,

I'm sorry to resurrect this old chestnut again but I just got my car back tonight, Fri 16th at 16;00' after it being in the garage a week as it bust the left hand rear hydraulic pipe, it's a C5 2002 model ... it took Citroen Glasgow from Tuesday to today to get the pipe from Edinburgh but that's another story.

My garage has fitted the pipe and refilled the hydraulic system with over 4 litres of hydraulic fluid but they've stuck LHM and not LDS.... they ordered the fluid from somewhere like Euro Car Parts giving the Make, Model and Registration number of the car and that's what they sent out to them.....

Reading this post it would appear everything is fine and not to worry but as it's now 2 years old I was wondering if there's been any change in thoughts on this.... will I be okay to leave it as cachaciero says or do I have to get them to flush and refill the system with LDS

Regards

Peter
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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by cachaciero »

I have not seen or heard anything which would make me change my mind on this. In the short to medium term i.e 0-4 years I can't see that it would make any difference, however in the longer term LHM may form some sludge which could be a problem as the only filter in the system is buried in the pump and cleaning could be a problem.

Generally the big problem for hydraulic oil is water content, high moisture can causes emulsification and then sludge in the oil so the warmer the oil can be run at the better it is from the point of view keeping water content low. Mineral oil will tend to absorb moisture more so than a pure synthetic. LHM is a semi synthetic oil LDS is a pure synthetic oil.

On earlier Cits pre C5 the LHM was also used for the brake system so I would expect oil temperatures to be higher (heat from pads through the brake pistons) than that achieved where the oil is only used for suspension and steering so this would be good from a point of view of reducing the propensity to absorb moisture on the other hand the reservoir was open to ambient which was bad from a moisture absorption point of view. The C5 oil will I suspect be running slightly cooler but the system is semi sealed so the opportunity for moisture absorption is less.
In all my years of running conventional LHM Cits I have never had a problem caused by sludge in the oil and on the occasions when I have changed the LHM there was little evidence of large sludge build up over a three year period.

As regards a C5 running LHM the answer to the sludge question will only be known when somebody runs one over a long period and then tells the world the results, if sludging were to occur cleaning could be difficult.

Personally I suspect that there are quite a few cars that have been serviced by the ignorant or unscrupulous running on LHM with apparently little problem, least none that get published.

Seems to me though that your garage has a case to answer, it was their responsibility to check what the correct oil should be, not leave that responsibility to the supplier of the oil, if I was paying a garage to do a job I would expect it to be done right and if they did it wrong rectify it at their expense.

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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by THELABMAN »

Hi cachaciero,

Thank you for the very informative reply on this thorny subject.....

The garage I use isn't a Citroen Specialist but they've worked on my BX, ZX, all three of my Xantia and my current C5 and I've never had an issue with them before now, and they have known of common problems with all the cars in the past, as I've also used them for almost 30 years I don't imagine if I was asking them to drain off the LHM and refill that I would have any great issue with it.

However if it's not going to cause the system to explode or otherwise damage anything in the immediate future I can maybe arrange for it to be done at some point convenient to us both... I've no intention of replacing the car at anytime soon, I'm fed up buying others cast off's and spending a fortune fixing them, and have decided to keep this until something goes wrong that's just unjustifiable to repair or replace.

Regards

Peter
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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by lexi »

I'm fed up buying others cast off's and spending a fortune fixing them, and have decided to keep this until something goes wrong that's just unjustifiable to repair or replace.

Regards


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Re: LHM FLUID INSIDE LDS CITROEN C5 WRONG FLUID TYPE HELP PL

Post by cachaciero »

THELABMAN wrote:Hi cachaciero,

Thank you for the very informative reply on this thorny subject.....

. I've no intention of replacing the car at anytime soon, I'm fed up buying others cast off's and spending a fortune fixing them, and have decided to keep this until something goes wrong that's just unjustifiable to repair or replace.

Regards

Peter
Yes can empathise with that and they arn't a bad car, actually much better built than many would give them credit for. Had to do some work on mine this last week which focuses the mind a little, and I have to say it was hard to convince myself that I was looking at a thirteen year old car which has during my ownership at least largely lived outside and has not been driven much over the last couple of years. Decided that as the cost of ownership has fallen to a point where it is as low as it is likely to get I might as well fix it properly and hang on to it.
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