406 HDi 110 Dream Car Turning into a Screaming Nightmare!!!

Post by **RichardW** » 10 Jun 2010, 07:59

And my ML5T has a crunchy first gear, and sometimes baulks reverse

Has done that since I got it at 47k (now on 102k) and if anything it's got BETTER in that time! I suspect it may have been driven gently before, whereas I am at the opposite end of the scale

. I suppose a change of oil might help, but the 1st synchro catches up in <1s if you slide it in gently. I may well consider another 'box when the time comes for a clutch change

dieselnutjob · Post by **dieselnutjob** » 17 Jun 2010, 09:41

if it has a dual mass flywheel then get rid of it.
I fitted a Valeo four part clutch kit (which includes a solid flywheel) on our 806 HDI and it has been fantastic. The previous new LuK dual mass flywheel only lasted two years.
The only downside is that the engine noise is very slightly harsher under hard acceleration. When cruising it doesn't make any difference

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 17 Jun 2010, 09:51

OUr C5 HDi 110 SX had its DMF replaced at 60K miles. It was fitted with a solid flywheel and new clutch kit and now has 123K miles on the clock, the clutch is still fine. So its done slight more miles with a solid flywheel than a DMF.

As we have one with a DMF (my VTR) and one without its easy to tell the difference. The DMF car has a softer bite and a lower biting point. The Solid flywheel has a higher biting point and if your rough you can get a harsh gearchange. Under normal conditions the non DMF car is brilliant, and certainly a peace of mind thing too.

That is th eonly difference i find, so perfectly fine and i would much rather my VTR had a soild flywheel, as no doubt thats somehting im going to have to do at some point, as these DMFs seem very unreliable to me.

Since we have a car which works fine without its standard fit DMF, then i really cant see why they need them.

Atleast not on the 2.0HDi, as after all, when this engine was bought out (in the Xantia) it didnt have a DMF, so it works perfectly well without one.

Post by **RichardW** » 17 Jun 2010, 12:17

The DMF damps out crank vibrations, which allows the manu to specify a thinner oil, which improves the cold start efficiency and hence the CO2 emissions on the standard test, so they get better headline figures. It's possible long term you might damage the crank shaft, but it seems a remote possibilty - after all the Xantia HDi 110 does without!

dieselnutjob · Post by **dieselnutjob** » 17 Jun 2010, 13:10

does the xantia 110 with solid flywheel have a different gearbox to the other 110 bhp HDIs? I was under the impression that a DMF implied a "pull" type release bearing and therefore a different release mechanism.

I'm guessing that the xantia just has the same clutch/flywheel as the 90bhp models that didn't have the DMF either

Chris56000 · Post by **Chris56000** » 20 Jun 2010, 12:13

Hi!

Its possible that the DMF and non-DMF Xantia gearboxes differ but my maroon book of Xantia Fairy Tales is an old one only covering TD & petrol engines as I've not had a Xantia for years, so I can't check on it I'm afraid!

Incidently the s/h gearbox I bought is now turning into a Mr. Bean comedy farce, TNT have apparently tried ***FOUR TIMES*** to deliver it to the garage and failed to do so, despite me having a long and detailed chat with both their Customer Services and another detailed (and now slightly peeved!!!) chat with one of their Drivers explaining exactly ***where*** to find the garage, and I've still not had word of its materialisation there!!!

Unfortunately the thing came from Falkirk, and there was no way I could have risked driving the car anything near a tenth of that distance!

Chris Williams

PS! What are the most usual symptoms of DMF failure, and do you get any warning?

Chris56000 · Post by **Chris56000** » 10 Jul 2010, 12:29

Hi!

Latest is that daft gearbox has finally arrived at the garage and I'm now £519.02 poorer having had it fitted (£238!!!) a clutch slave cylinder (£73.50!!!!) a clutch (£135!!!) plus oil, sundries etc.

I thought this'd finally be an end to this nonsense, but would you believe it, on a test run to the Yorkshire Coast, it all jammed up again with the clutch pedal on the floor again!!!!

After a struggle in Hull's Holderness Road McD's car park, I eventually managed to get the clutch to release again and got it home via the A63/M62, M18, M1 and A42/M42, this route having direct junctions not needing any stops to change gear!!!

Anyway I eventually got it to my Sister's and got my Bro-In-Law to look at it and he spotted straightaway there was a gash piece of what looked like his copper-pipe scrap (he's a plumber) jammed on the clutch master cylinder pushrod, this had clearly been there all the time I'd had this pesky motor, and following yet another jam whilst down there I finally discovered the master cylinder pushrod had snapped and was intermittently jamming in the bit of gash pipe that had been stuck round it!!!

The most infuriating thing was this was almost certainly the cause of my trouble all along and neither the garage or the Transmission Specialist in town I took it to in the first place to ask about a Warranty Inspection had even looked behind the clutch-pedal or said anything to me about the clutch linkage being broken - they both insisted it was the gearbox synchro units!!! (I did ask if they'd checked it was releasing correctly and they insisted it was!!!) If they'd taken the trouble to look behind the clutch-pedal in the first place and told me it was broken I'd have taken the car away and tried another cylinder 1st, (although I obviously can't prove this, I suspect if they ***did*** look and found the state it was in they'd want to keep schtum anyway as they could make more loot fitting an exchange gearbox!!!)

If ever there is a reason not to trust garages this tale of horrors has to be another one of 'em!!! I'm going to fit the replacement master cylinder myself over the next week, its an easy job not needing any tools!!!

Chris Williams

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 10 Jul 2010, 12:47

Its a shame you had to go through all of that inconvenience and cost only to find it wasnt the gearbox at all.

At least you know what it is now and you should be able to fix it. Plus your car has a new clutch. It is odd the specialist didnt pick up on this point. You could take it to them and argue that they advised it would be the box and it isnt, could be a possibility of getting some of your money back? Probably not.

As far as garages go, i dont trust them, ive had too many problems with them in the past (damaged cars, wrong diagnosis, the length of time they need to do a job). When i drove a Seat it had a running problem, it was in and out of the dealer while they tried to fix things, they skimmed the head twice (this was a 20 month old car with 20K miles), had the bores out and in numerous times. They even left it in a dusty car park with the head removed for a week, the engine was full of grit. At one point they had my car for a whole 3 months, while it was there they proceded to try things which would never fix the problem and damaged the car too. In the end SeakUK requested they fit a new engine. However it did not end there, when i picked the car up a front wheel bearing had a horendous drone. Somehow while replacing that they bent the hub making it eat through brake discs and distorting them. I was not impressed one bit, but they did know exactly what i thought of them and their service. The service manager was soon replaced after this, with a much more helpful person. However my problems with the dealer didnt end there. Thats just one example and a short version at that, but i could write a book with the rest, with Renualt dealers, citroen etc, dont even get me started on the problems we had with the VW dealer.

So now i try to avoid them at all cost. I have a select few garages who i do trust and they are the only people i now use. However where i can i always do the work myself, atleast i know what has been done that way.

Find a good independant and usually your ok, however some are dreadful and dealers, in my opinion, are by far the worst. They just have no interest in the job it seems.

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Jul 2010, 16:52

That's terrible Chris

Chris56000 wrote: a clutch slave cylinder (£73.50!!!!)

I don't understand this

A new clutch slave cylinder would have come with a new pushrod... So why the bodge?

I trust you are going to make a serious complaint against the garage?

Like you Chris, I'd not trust a garage with a pedal car

I'm not sure they have no interest; what they clearly have is no knowledge and no interest in gaining any either and clearly no engineering common sense or an ability to work out a problem from fundamentals.

Chris56000 · Post by **Chris56000** » 10 Jul 2010, 17:46

Hi!

It was the ***Master*** Cylinder (clutch pedal end!!!) where my Bro-In-Law & I discovered the plumbing-pipe bodge and the snapped pushrod!!!

I'll be examining the ***Slave*** cylinder (g/b end!!!) carefully when I fit the new Master Cylinder to make sure its a new one - the garage charged me almost three times the Main Dealer Price for the thing!!!

I don't think I've got the earlier D8-series "monobloc" sealed system but I'll post piccies when I get round to doing it!!!

I'm going to take piccies and the repair bills to the CAB and see if I've got any grounds against the garage for misdiagnosis - he actually wrote on the first bill for the gearbox linkage cables that the first g/b was u/s!!!

Chris Williams

Post by **myglaren** » 10 Jul 2010, 17:59

I wonder if it would be worth getting an engineers report on that before dismantling it - if it is a bodge and they have charged for new parts not fitted then it is a clear case of fraud and food for the County Court.
Once you have started to dismantle things then it won't stand up legally - they could accuse you of swapping parts yourself.
You need an independent observer to verify your findings.

Photograph everything as evidence - you may not need it but if you do it is better to have it than wish you had.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 10 Jul 2010, 18:01

By the sounds of it the 'fix' was done before Chris purchased his 406?

Post by **myglaren** » 10 Jul 2010, 18:09

Indeed but
1) they should have checked the whole of the clutch operating train and
2) It appears as though they have bodged the work that they did do and it was ineffective anyway.

Chris should not be paying for their lack of professionalism.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 10 Jul 2010, 18:19

I agree, i would be trying to get some if not all of the money back for the repairs. As it obviously didnt require them and how they could have missed something so obvious does seem lackluster for a specialist in gearbooxes.