XUD11ATE vs XUD11BTE

Dommo · Post by **Dommo** » 26 Feb 2010, 17:25

Because filtered waste veg oil is free!

Same reason I want to fit a 2.1td. If I can get the power anywhere near the ct engine then it'll drive much nicer with it being torquey and do decent mpg and be on waste veg oil.

citroenxm · Post by **citroenxm** » 26 Feb 2010, 21:11

No point looking at a 2.1 Xantia! They are all eeeeek- pic pumps.

(Sorry jim, couldn't help that

)

Paul

Post by **CitroJim** » 26 Feb 2010, 21:54

citroenxm wrote:No point looking at a 2.1 Xantia! They are all eeeeek- pic pumps.

Am I the only person who likes Lucas stuff around here?

Geoff, if the stops takes two or three seconds and the EM light comes on than that's a good sign one or more of the ESOS electrovalves are leaky.

They just need new Viton tips fitting. It is a DIY job but a bit fiddly. I've had a suspect EPIC in bits and they are a doddle to take apart compared to the Bosch. Inside, they are all mechanical and contrary to legend, there are no sensors inside so far as I could see..

I reckon a new seal kit will sort out an EPIC perfectly. If you've ever been inside a Lucas DPC then they work on much the same principle but with the ESOS electrovalves controlling fuelling, stop duties and timing. If the Stop ESOS is leaky, the ECU shuts down the engine by operating the fuelling valve to cutoff until the engine stops and lights the EM light to show it has had to use its emergency strategy to bring about a stop.

As I say, do check carefully for airleaks first as a leak can give the same symptoms.

If you fancy an EPIC rebuild, have a natter with this Company for spares.

Else fit either a Turbo enabled Lucas DPC from a late 1.9TD or if you must, a Bosch. The advantage of fitting a DPC is that you can retain the Lucas pipes and injectors.

davetherave · Post by **davetherave** » 26 Feb 2010, 22:43

Am I the only person who likes Lucas stuff around here?

Fraid so Jim
Even my girlfriend and parents know that lucas is 'bad'

from hearing me go on about them!

All 3 of the diesels i have had have had Bosch and they have taken some abuse! and taken it well!

Dommo · Post by **Dommo** » 27 Feb 2010, 00:45

Just looking on wiki at the moment for hp ratings for the standard 2.1TD, and it seems the BTE is just a catalysed version of the ATE...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_XUD#XUD11

Geoff Lebowski · Post by **Geoff Lebowski** » 27 Feb 2010, 03:26

CitroJim wrote:
citroenxm wrote:No point looking at a 2.1 Xantia! They are all eeeeek- pic pumps.

Am I the only person who likes Lucas stuff around here?

Not if mine keeps on going! I\'ll love it forever!

That\'s great information Jim thank you. I\'ve not played with any Lucas pump. I think I\'ll fit the Xantia epic and delve inside the XM one with a view to replacing those seals you mention.

I\'ll have a look for air leaks too, I assume the system not being properly bled would cause the same issue?

That\'s great work Dommo, I tried searching but didn\'t think of wiki. I guess the ATE doesn\'t have that EGR stuff either.
As for veg oil, well if it\'s free then I completely understand but if I tried it I\'d end up hungry all the time!

Geoff Lebowski · Post by **Geoff Lebowski** » 27 Feb 2010, 15:15

Dommo wrote:Because filtered waste veg oil is free!

Same reason I want to fit a 2.1td. If I can get the power anywhere near the ct engine then it'll drive much nicer with it being torquey and do decent mpg and be on waste veg oil.

Well if you can get your hands on an engine, I have gearbox, gearbox gear change cables, drive shafts, ECU for EPIC pump, full exhaust system (unless it\'s the same as an XM 2.1 in which case I\'ll be keeping it) I may be short on some of the air inlet ducting. If you are serious then let me know very soon in case there are still any parts left on the car before it goes.

Dommo · Post by **Dommo** » 28 Feb 2010, 14:43

I have PM'd you Geoff.

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 28 Feb 2010, 15:11

Basically, you bought the wrong car; go out and buy a 2.1TD instead

Please leave the Activa alone, there just aren't enough of them in s2 guise
to fanny about with. You'll barely use the ARCS with an oil burner plugged
in and have you checked out the insurance implications?

I've got a dead TCT in a s1 Activa and have seriously considered an
alternate engine but it's a significant undertaking for little genuine real
payback - all I saw was negatives.

I can see a very desirable rare car abandoned and sold as spares as a final
outcome here TBH.

Andrew

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Feb 2010, 16:37

Andrew, if Dom does the conversion with care, it can be reverted if necessary...

I'm sure too that the time and money Dom has so far expended on the car will ensure it does not end up as parts...

Also, if you have a dead S1, you two can come to a deal with engines perhaps?

andmcit · Post by **andmcit** » 28 Feb 2010, 17:14

I appreciate the car may not have been massively expensive in the first
instance and is now the subject of a rolling upgrade project and fair enough,
each to their own, I guess it's better than seeing the car losing the engine
to an Pug then to be thrown away and the recipient left unfinished or crashed
into the first hedge but I believe it's madness myself - some people are just
never happy with their lot and don't realise/appreciate what it is they've got.

I've got a 2.1TD engine spare myself and the crippled wood/leather and air
Activa bodyshell and whilst being very handy mechanically myself just don't
want the trials and tribulations of making such a conversion work. Guess it's
likely because the engine in question is diesel and I'm not the biggest fan of
diesels but I'd blanche at the prospect of a V6 motor into an Activa too.

Nobody has to agree with me and I'm just posing my opinion on this open
forum and likely not making many friends in the process yet I still feel
obliged to state the case of leaving one of 300 odd rare Xantia Activa s2's
as is. The ends just don't justify the means to me.

Andrew

xmexclusive · Post by **xmexclusive** » 28 Feb 2010, 17:17

The wikipedia entry does not seem to tie up with the Citroen workshop manual. The XM 1996 model year booklet states the XUD11 engine change history of evolutions. Both engine types were made to all 4 emmissions standards and during 1995 both engine types continued in production. Both types of engine were supplied with and without cat depending on which market and therefore emmission target they had to meet. The key difference listed is that an ATE engine was made with Bosch injection and the BTE version has Lucas EPIC.

John

Geoff Lebowski · Post by **Geoff Lebowski** » 28 Feb 2010, 20:47

Aaah that\'s interesting XMExc. Possibly would the Bosch equipped cars of been cat-less and all Epic with Cats?

Apart from curiosity, I want to know for a reason. Euro Car Parts lists my XM as an ATE but it\'s Epic equipped. It\'s a 96 P plate. I can only assume ECP got it wrong!

andmcit can you please reply to my pms regarding the radio? Ta!

xmexclusive · Post by **xmexclusive** » 28 Feb 2010, 22:48

Hi Geoff

Will try to put up the full text, may take an edit or so.

PHZ XUD11 ATE/Y - Until the 1996 model year - features/remarks: Exhaust gas recycling valve. Catalytic converter. 5-piston high pressure pump. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 2. Manual gearbox or Automatic gearbox.

P8B XUD11 ATE/L - Until the 1996 model year - features/remarks: Exhaust gas recycling valve. No catalytic converter. 5-piston high pressure pump. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 2. Manual gearbox or Automatic gearbox.

PHZ XUD11 ATE/Y - From the 1996 model year onwards - features/remarks: Exhaust gas recycling valve. Catalytic converter. New item: support for auxilliary equipment. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 1. Oil capacity (reduced capacity). Automatic gearbox (only).

P8B XUD11 ATE/L - From the 1996 model year onwards - features/remarks: Exhaust gas recycling valve. No catalytic converter. New item: support for auxilliary equipment. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 1. Oil capacity (reduced capacity). Automatic gearbox (only).

I estimate that the 1996 Model Year started around ORGA No. 6781.

Engine XUD11 BTE - There is a page of launch information:
New engine: XUD11 BTE/L, with manual gearbox.
The new engine replaces: engine xud11 ATE/L, with manual gearbox.
From 01/1995, version XUD11 ATE/Y has been replaced, in abnticipation, by version BTE/L3; manual gearbox.
Engine XUD11 BTE incorporates an electronic management of the injection: Lucas Diesel EPIC; injection electronic control unit + injection pump.
Advantages of the electronic management:
- to comply with the emission standards
- to improve drivability
This device enables managing the following items:
- the coded anti-theft function
- the trip computer
Data: Date of launch - from 01/1995
Engine code - XUD11 BTE
Legislation type - P8C
Capacity - 2088cc
Compression ratio - 21.5/1
Max power 110 HP DIN at 4300 rpm
Max torque - 26m.kg at 2000 rpm
Emissions standard - L(EEC 93) / L3(EURO 96)
Catalytic converter - L none / L3 with
EGR valve - L none / L3 with.

Included in the above are two 1995 BTE engine types /L and /L3.
In the table following the 1995/L is not listed. The document is a GB one. In a later section on the DK5 engine a note includes the comment that " Vehicles observing the emissions standard L3 (instead of Z) were only marketed in countries offering tax incitements".
L3 is more severe that than standards L & Y and did not become compulsory in the EC until 1997. So during 1995/1996 Citroen were manufacturing to at least 4 different emissions standards.

Then the booklet has a table listing 3 BTE variants in the same format as the 4 ATE engine listed above.

P8C XUD11 BTE/L3 - Until the 1996 model year - features/remarks: Lucas Diesel EPIC fuel injection (Diesel engine with electronic injection). Exhaust gas recycling valve. Catalytic converter. 5 piston high pressure pump. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 2. Replacing: XUD11 ATE/Y, PH; manual gearbox. Manual gearbox (only).

P8C XUD11 BTE/L - From the 1996 model year - features/remarks: Lucas Diesel EPIC fuel injection (Diesel engine with electronic injection). No exhaust gas recycling valve. No catalytic converter. New: support for auxilliary equipment, 6+2-piston high pressure pump. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 1. Oil capacity (reduced capacity). Replacing: XUD11 ATE/L, P8B; manual gearbox. Manual gearbox (only).

P8C XUD11 BTE/L3 - From the 1996 model year - features/remarks: Lucas Diesel EPIC fuel injection (Diesel engine with electronic injection). Exhaust gas recycling valve. Catalytic converter. New: support for auxilliary equipment, 6+2-piston high pressure pump. Auxilliary equipment drive belt: quantity 1. Oil capacity (reduced capacity). Replacing: XUD11 BTE/L3, P8C (note that old and new engines both have the same designation. Old engine has 5-piston high pressure pump). Manual gearbox (only).

Sorry that it is a bit long but I though that with 7 or 8 variants of the engine over 2 years it was worth spelling it out in full. Bear in mind that this is just the XM evolution booklet. It is possible that there is further booklets for all the models using the XUD11 engine during this period and that they may have different evolution variations. I can now understand why there are so many errors in parts supply for these particular XUD's.

1997 Model Year - ORGA No. ???? onwards:
Booklet is dated Oct 1996 so ORGA will be around 7146.
XUD11 ATE/Y (Y4-CX/car, Y4-CY/est) and XUD11 ATE/L (Y4-TD/car, Y4-NW/est) autos still in production but note saying that versions gradually replaced by XUD11 BTE/L3 P8C 4HP18 - 20GZ5D engine/auto combination.

1998 Model Year - ORGA No. 7511 onwards:

1999 Model Year - ORGA No. 7847 onwards:

2000 Model Year - ORGA No. 8211 onwards: SX only produced.
P8C XUD11 BTE/L3 - ME5T gearbox (20GM31) - Y4GZ (car) , Y4MZ (est).
ECU software - 9630509280/41502211OB.
P8C XUD11 BTE/L3 - 4HP18 autobox (20GZ5D) - Y4RN (car) , Y4CW (est).
ECU software - 9630509280/41501411OC.
P8C XUD11 BTE/L4 - ME5T gearbox (20GM31) - Y4WE (car) , Y4WF (est).
ECU software - 9630509280/41501412OD.
P8C XUD11 BTE/L3 - ME5T gearbox (20GM31) - Y4GZ (for ambulance).
Tecnical changes: Intermediate exhaust pipe discontinued.
New ECU H5 3B2G (configured when fitted).

John

Geoff Lebowski · Post by **Geoff Lebowski** » 01 Mar 2010, 10:01

You are supposed to be helping John!

That is some in depth information and I\'m still not sure which one I have!!!

I think it\'s the later version of PHZ XUD11 ATE/Y, but I\'ll have to have another look at the car before I\'m certain.

As you say, no wonder there are mistakes/complications and to make it slightly more confusing, mine is a P plate \'96 which I assume puts me in the \'from 1996 Model Year onwards\'.

After my experience with my Xantia, one of the first things I\'ll do to the XM is replace that harmonic balancer pulley!!!

Thanks again John, I\'ll check the XM over and report back!