Please help with c6 brake and steering problem after fluid c

[nickyg]

Hello guys! New to the forum as have been the owner of my first french car, a c6, since november 09!

Can someone offer me advice please? My local garage guy, aswell as breaking a tpms sensor, has left my brake pedal spongy and power steering whining following brake fluid change at service. I suspect not being bled properly, if at all.

Can i get some comment on this and any particular danger i should be aware of, as this is the first car i've owned where the reservoir for the brake fluid serves power steering also.

Thanks in advance!

Nick

[wheeler]

Can i get some comment on this and any particular danger i should be aware of, as this is the first car i've owned where the reservoir for the brake fluid serves power steering also.

The C6 has a conventional braking system & it doesent share with the steering, i hope your mechanic knew this or there could now be some serious & expensive damage. The brakes use normal DOT4 & the steering & suspension use LDS.

[myglaren]

Return it to them to put right, you have paid for a service that you haven't received.
If they don't know what they are doing it is their problem for accepting a job they are not competent to do.
Document everything in case you need to rely on it later, i.e. for the small claims court. Best to be prepared for the worst and hope it never happens.

Commiserations on your encounter with bodgers.

[nickyg]

Thanks. I had looked into this earlier this afternoon, and am now quite worried as had realised this to be the case.

The brakes being spongy were one thing, then the whine of the steering. I suppose i assumed (wrongly) they were caused by the one piece of shoddy flush and bleeding.

He had mentioned a small pool of fluid under the drivers wheel, which he thought was suspension fluid related and had come when put on the lift.

My fervent hope is that the lds fluid on this system lubricates the boots of the rams/dampers as on some previous citroens and perhaps going up and down on the lift for a couple of days has caused a slight loss of lds and i am now a bit low, causing power steering issues? I don't think there is a level sensor in there, and it's something i don't want to even open or go near as the manual states to leave all topping up to a dealershship.

Any other thoughts will be welcome guys. Am extremely angry now, as picked the car up saturday last thing and have been worried all saturday evening and today over what nonsense this man has been upto and haven't got recourse to answers till monday.

[Trainman]

If your not to far away, I maybe to fetch mine round for a comparison if you think it would help.

[myglaren]

Thanks. I had looked into this earlier this afternoon, and am now quite worried as had realised this to be the case.

The brakes being spongy were one thing, then the whine of the steering. I suppose i assumed (wrongly) they were caused by the one piece of shoddy flush and bleeding.

I think you assumed correctly there - that the brake circuit has not been correctly bled. Was any other work done on the brakes - e.g. replacement pads?

He had mentioned a small pool of fluid under the drivers wheel, which he thought was suspension fluid related and had come when put on the lift.

My fervent hope is that the lds fluid on this system lubricates the boots of the rams/dampers as on some previous citroens and perhaps going up and down on the lift for a couple of days has caused a slight loss of lds and i am now a bit low, causing power steering issues?

Hardly likely. It will only leak if there is a defect somewhere. I have had no loss of LDS in the three years I have had my C5 other than a few millitres from a split gaiter (similar system - a bit simpler of course) and I regularly excersise the hydraulics.

I don't think there is a level sensor in there, and it's something i don't want to even open or go near as the manual states to leave all topping up to a dealershship.

I couldn't say with any certainty but it would surprise me if there wasn't a level sensor, too important to leave to chance when there are sensors for washer fluid level, far less critical.

Certain aspects require a diagnostic computer (ABS & suspension) and usually only dealers have the dedicated machines, although there are exceptions among Citroen specialists.

Any other thoughts will be welcome guys. Am extremely angry now, as picked the car up saturday last thing and have been worried all saturday evening and today over what nonsense this man has been upto and haven't got recourse to answers till monday.

C6s are a rarity on the forum but much of it will be similar or the same on C5s and later Xantias.

[nickyg]

If your not to far away, I maybe to fetch mine round for a comparison if you think it would help.

Haha! I'm in n ireland unfortunately mate! Though if they're going right long distance is a breeze in them! Same colour too!

Just took her out again there and had a listen. The noise when steering is terrible. I am fearing the worst. Put the suspension up to max and there is a loud whir going when up, though this may be the way it always was as had no real reason to listen before. Anyone know if what common part or pump may cause a noise in steering and suspension? I'm fearing he's damaged something in there. I'll have to go to citroen, an eighty mile round trip for me.

[Trainman]

Ah, well, it's the thought that counts

[nickyg]

Ah, well, it's the thought that counts

If only this mechanic had been as thoughtful as you!

Seriously, broken tpms sensor, bent the jacking points, poorly secured undertray, soft brakes and worst of all now this whine and possible lds loss.

He had to admit the broken tpms because I came in and saw the car when it wasn't ready, he had been using my tyre for pressure for the brake bleeder device. As the car had been moved to a different lift from the previous day, it was one of those where the the whole car is lifted up on its wheels, rather than the jacking points, he then proceeded to look for inappropriate places to put a piece of timber and a high, wheeled jack in order to get up further in order to get the wheel off, to which I had to politely tell him to check again as to where he was intending to put it.

Goodness knows whats been disturbed or damaged with workmanship like this. In 24 hours since I had the car I've heard some horror stories from people about the guy.. and all I wanted was some new brake fluid, filters and oil. First time I haven't done a service myself, as I simply didn't have time with work.

I doubt I'll have much change from £500 at a dealer due to this, and I hope it isn't worse regarding the steering/lds issue.

£130 tpms fitted to wheel and mated to car
£100 approx, brake fluid flush, properly done.
£???? lds/hydraulic/steering damage????

Thanks again, everyone, any further thoughts greatly appreciated!

[wheeler]

I just hope he's used the right fluid in the right reservior.

[cachaciero]

If the C6 has similarity's with the C5 which I suspect it has then to bleed the brakes properly will require a Lexia to condition various bits of the system into the correct state for bleeding.

As regards steering again I would suspect that the power steering uses a common resevoir and fluid, LDS with the suspension. Certainly on the C5 the prefered method of depresurising the suspension and bleeding the system requires a Lexia.

If your garage hasn't got a Lexia and a man that knows how to use it then I would suggest that you take your C6 elsewhere.
Maintenance of the C5 requires a step up both in system knowledge and equipment from previous generations I've no doubt that the C6 is the same.

cachaciero

[nickyg]

Regarding the correct fluid, I think he did, mate. As I asked him is he getting his dot4 from a newly sealed container, when I was in with him the first time and he mentioned having "giant bottles" of dot4 when I told him I sometimes like to go to dot5.1 with my cars.

A worry would be if he caused a leak, somehow botched it together again and topped up lds reservoir with lhm in tizzy, although again I mentioned off the bat at the start during conversation about the c6 not using lhm in any way (I called in unnanounced the second time and caught him with the flat tyre, broken sensor and small pool of lds).

With these hydraulic systems, when might one start to notice something amiss? I've done 10 miles now, since all this.

In answer to another question earlier, no pads were changed, though I will likely do the rears myself soon.

Would lexia be an absolute necessity for brake fluid flush on my car, or does the pressure bleeder do the job ok?

Don't really want to be looking at master cylinder damage also into the bargain!

I think I'll have to go to citroen to get the brakes sorted. They're not bad, just a softer pedal than before. I suppose whilst I'm there I may get the eolys topped up, as I forbade this mechanic from that, as he didn't seem to know too much about them and thinking filters, dot4 and oil wouldn't be too much to ask!

Just out of interest, does the diagnostic come into play again whilst/after topping up eolys fluid? I'd imagine I'll be needing at least 2 litres of it at 70k+.

Thankyou for the replies!

[myglaren]

In your shoes I'd be taking legal advice tomorrow and from what you have said regarding damaged jacking points etc. I would be very reluctant to let it back into their clutches.

I'd get a solicitors letter advising them that due to their carelesness and general incompetence I would submit the car for an engineers report and then proceed to rectify the damage caused at their expense, using an accredited garage (not necessarily a dealer).

As the brakes are arguably defective and there is a suspicion of a steering defect, you should approach your insurers with an attempt to secure a loan car while your C6 is attended to. Your insurers may also assist with legal claims against the garage.

As your claim is against a third party - who have to carry public liability insurance, they will extract the cost from the garages insurers and that should leave your no claims bonus untouched.

If you are an AA or RAC member they also used to carry a very substantial legal expenses cover. They can also provide an engineers report.

[john alexander]

Hi my c5 devoloped a terrible noise from the steering , so i topped it up, took about 3/4 of a litre. There was no leak to be found but the rear suspension is now a lot harder over bumps , I think the gas has gone in the spheres and thats where the lds went . I did'nt use any special equipment just topped up to the level shown in the BOL . John.

[nickyg]

Ok, just a quick update and hope for some comment.

I parted ways with the mechanic that he wouldn't be getting paid for the work he did do correctly in light of his other actions that have caused issues.

I've still got the noise with the steering, especially when at very low speeds, and the laboured noise from the suspension when moving to low, or back up to normal. Been so busy with work and my nearest dealer is a 90 min round trip away at best, so have just persevered!

From my ongoing ownership of my first Citroen, my further research has led me to believe that the hydraulic system has been compromised with air, and will now need depressurised, bled, new LDS, and repressurised with Lexia.

I think this because on many pages of the C6 service/repair manual there are clear warnings to remove LDS cap prior to lifting with wheels hanging.. and I know my car was lifted and set down wheels hanging at least three times at that garage (no LDS cap removed).

I'm hoping that this will cure all, but I have one final aspect to consider.

Since I have been living with this issue, my front wheels sit noticeably (10-15mm) higher in normal driving position than they did beforehand, which is horrible aesthetics wise, as the front wheel arch gap was already larger than the rear arch gap before.. never mind now!!

Any thoughts on that strange one?

Thankyou again everyone for the comments thus far, it is much appreciated.