All Things V6...

Tell us your ongoing tales and experiences with your French car here. Post pictures of your car here as well.

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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by DHallworth »

Well it's been a busy night tonight. The workshop is tidied as it looked like someone had thrown bit's of Xantia everywhere and then exploded a bag of saw dust under the ramp to catch the drips!

After that I got the V6 on the engine stand, locked it all up with the timing pins and stripped down the belt. Whoever did the belt before was a bit heavy handed. Everything was ridiculously tight and the awkward cam cover bolts were loose. I'm guessing that it only had a belt the last time as well as all the tensioners are gritty and noisy.

I've got two tubes of Loctite 9510 as I'm going to reseal the leaking sump and will do the cam blocks whilst the engine is out of the car.

The hydraulic pump has been leaking badly onto the alternator as well but I'd intended to reseal the pump whilst it was out so the o-rings are already in the workshop to do that. I'm a bit reluctant to clean the alternator to much as I don't want to spray anything like degreaser on it or put it in the parts washer as that might risk drying out the bearings leading to further problems. As Citroen charge £899 for a Xantia V6 alternator I don't really want to bugger it either!

I found that the hydraulic pipe from the pressure regulator on the chassis leg going to the steering rack on the V6 was pretty rough looking tonight so I've just managed to find someone with one of those so have ordered it too. It looks like it's just conventional brake pipe type flares rather then Citroen ones on the power steering pipes.

Anyway, here's a few pictures of tonights work:

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David.
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by KP »

David I'd take the hit and take the alternator to a reconditioner as in sure the lhm intake will kill it and you don't want to have to have to go in and do that job again in the future!
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CitroJim
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by CitroJim »

Excellent on the V6 conversion progress David.

I'm delighted to see you're going to do the camboxes whilst the engine is out. They're a pain enough when accessible but when in the engine bay it's that much more difficult. Go easy on the sealant and make sure it's in date as it can go 'off'. Too much sealant is not a good recipe for good sealing. Clean the mating surfaces until you could perform a surgical operation on them...

That alternator. That looked like the one in my original V6. I cleaned it up off the engine with copious amounts of electronics grade solvent and lots of blowing out with an airline and it's still good now some 40K-on. The early rinses of solvent came out green and I kept going until the final solvent rinse ran clear.

The ML5 gearbox is a tough old thing and as long as the oil is there in more or less the right quantity and is reasonably clean I can't see there being much adrift. 80K on an ML5 is nothing at all...
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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

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Well no progress tonight as I'm on call and need to be in Edinburgh at 23:30 so am not getting dirty before I go.

I got a phone call today telling me that the gearbox is ready for collection. Apparently 3 or 4 of the syncro's were about 80% worn. The guy has replaced them for me and apparently now it's as good as new inside. All done for £125 cash. Can't really grumble at that but I'm really glad I took it in.

I'm collecting a few parts tomorrow, namely all the nuts and bolts required to mount the clutch. As my engine was an auto I've changed the flywheel to a manual one and have a new crank shaft sensor to go in too.

More progress reports as it comes.

The sealant that I've picked up is Loctite 5910, it's a black compound that should do the job, however, I've since been reading about Loctite 5980 which will tolerate slightly higher temperatures so am wondering if I might be better changing what I use before I do the job.

David.
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by CitroJim »

That was excellent on the gearbox refurb David :-D Synchro hubs are normally very expensive.

Yes, I'd go for the higher temperature sealant...
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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

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Well I've ordered a tub of Loctite 7980 which is the higher temperature stuff. I checked with a friend who is a mechanic for Peugeot, it's also the ONLY stuff that they will use for instant gasket type stuff in the workshop so I'm glad I've ordered it. Just hope it arrives tomorrow so I can keep working away.

Cheryl's 207 has spat the dummy a little and the rear brakes appear to be binding again which is really annoying as both rear calipers are less then 12 months old. I'm hoping that it's just the pads are sticking in the carrier but I don't think I'll be that lucky.

It's official now anyway. The Activa is getting it's V6 conversion done the weekend of 7th and 8th June :D Really looking forward to it now, I'm like a kid at Christmas!

David.
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by CitroJim »

DHallworth wrote: Really looking forward to it now, I'm like a kid at Christmas!
I'd be the same David...

I'm pleased to see and Activa getting exactly the engine it deserves :-D
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by Mandrake »

DHallworth wrote:It's official now anyway. The Activa is getting it's V6 conversion done the weekend of 7th and 8th June :D Really looking forward to it now, I'm like a kid at Christmas!
Fantastic, I would be the same. :-D Looking forward to a ride in her when she's all done. :wink: Not just to see what a V6 Activa is like, but I'm very curious to see what the ES9J4 is like with a manual gearbox rather than being knobbled by an automatic...

That engine certainly looks quite weathered on the surface - corrosion on the alloy intake runners etc... I guess that's what happens to a car that sits in the weather for nearly a year! I'm sure it will clean up after a bit of work though.

It's quite neat seeing the pictures of the side of the engine when it's out - it really is massive isn't it! (Try to take more pictures during the strip down and overhaul process if you can - its both very interesting and informative :) )

I'll have to have a word with you for some advice if/when I come to doing the timing belt on mine...and yes the timing belt rollers on mine are starting to sound quite gritty too, so I'm going to have to do all the rollers.... (and possibly a new crank pulley as well if the squeak on cold start-up is the rubber on that starting to let go)

How far are you planning to strip the engine down ? I'm guessing camshafts out to seal under the cam boxes ? Again some pictures would be really nice if you have those out... I'm still trying to work out in my mind how you re-time the camshafts if you have to take the cam boxes and cam wheels right out to seal underneath... (as mine needs)

If you go as deep as removing the lower manifold make sure you replace the knock sensor with a nice new one while you're there - its not expensive and its a bugger to get to later if you have mysterious engine performance problems that nothing else seems to solve... :twisted:

Are you considering sending the injectors away for professional flow testing / ultrasonic cleaning ? (They will also fit new o-rings) I would if I was you, especially if the engine has sat basically unused for nearly a year - some of the injectors will be intermittently sticky and on a car of that mileage chances are the flow rates are lower than they should be and/or imbalanced causing running problems that you might not notice until the car has had a bit of real world use. (Remember how intermittent my car has been...)

I'm fairly convinced now (by a process of elimination) that low flow rates on my injectors is the cause of lean running in open loop mode which is giving me so many headaches with intermittent performance - the engine runs lean under load, knocks, and then gets its timing retarded.

Of the second hand injectors I bought on ebay (complete with rail, from a 406 Coupe) 3 of them were stuck shut when I first got them and took a lot of pulsing with a tester and mechanical tapping before they gave in and started working - and whilst they pass a balance test reasonably well (no obvious difference in flow rates after I cleaned them) I have absolutely no idea whether their absolute flow rates are low or not. (same with my original injectors)

(For example if they should be 150mL/min at 3 bars, and they are all 135mL/min due to deposit build up over the years - they're balanced, but flow rates are still too low which will cause lean running in open loop mode where the O2 sensor can't provide feedback)

Given the scale of the project and the fact that you're doing the conversion for performance you don't want to miss anything that might sacrifice performance... even if you just end up with a new set of o-rings and a nice report card showing that all the injectors are all spot on and within spec the peace of mind would be worth it IMHO. :)

Also the 406 rail I bought came with the lower intake manifold still attached and there was a lot of alloy corrosion at the junction between the manifold and the injector rail that would have been preventing the injector o-rings from sealing properly, so at the very least you want to lift the rails out and check for corrosion at the face, as the same thing may have happened on a car that sat for so long.

While you're at it also check the fuel pressure regulator! They seem to get "tired", my original one was only producing 2.7 bars with the vacuum hose off when it should be 3.0 bars. Of the three regulators I now have the original is 2.7, the one that came with the 406 injectors is 2.8 and the one I got from Stempy a while ago is 2.9 bars! 2.7 bars is 10% lower than it should be which would also make the engine run leaner than it should at WOT...

That hydraulic pump looks a bit sad - the corrosion between the triangle plate on the left hand end and the face it bolts to is a little bit of a concern - when I had mine apart to fit new seals it was in as-new condition with no rust anywhere. Hopefully it all cleans up ok!

I'm not sure why some people are so paranoid about LHM damaging an alternator, as if any sort of leak is an instant death warrant for it! Nobody has explained to me yet why a light oil should damage anything inside an alternator. It's not going to hurt the bearings, (they should be sealed but if not some oil is only going to help!) its not going to damage the windings, its not going to damage the commutator (in fact it may help prevent it oxidising) and I can't see it damaging the brushes either.

Unless the alternator is already about to die on its own I honestly can't see what damage it would do, I've certainly never had one fail due to LHM leaking into it and I've had LHM leaks into the alternator in both my Xantia's. Not that it should be allowed to continue of course, but Jim's suggestion of thoroughly flushing it out with the right solvent then compressed air should see it back to full health. It's not the end of the world if it has to be replaced later anyway.

PS I hope you're not planning to bin the gearbox from the green car ? ;)
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CitroJim
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by CitroJim »

That reminds me. I have two V6 cambelts to do this year... It's really not such a bad job, especially if you fit the later C5 tensioner which dispenses with the need of a SEEM gauge...
Mandrake wrote: PS I hope you're not planning to bin the gearbox from the green car ? ;)
If David does that he'll have me to answer to Simon!
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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by DHallworth »

Simon,

I'm quite lucky to have done about 1000 miles in this Xantia before deciding to break it and even did about 20 in it last month before breaking it.

It was running fine with no signs of being short of power and it was behaving perfectly so I'm not going to go as far as the injectors. I wondered about changing the fuel pressure regulator but Citroen want £85 for a new one so it can stay as it is for now.

I'm only replacing things with genuine parts too, I've not bought anything after market for it other then a cam belt kit which upon opening it has SKF idlers and tensioners in it, the same as the OE one.

I started to strip the top of the engine down the other night, took the back two rocker covers off and revealed the camshafts, I've not gone any further yet as the Locktite 9850 sealant that I ordered still hasn't arrived yet which is annoying as I paid extra for speedy delivery.

All of the cam lobes look to be in lovely condition, no marks on them, all nice and silver with no signs of discolouring or scoring on them. I've got a few pictures but as they were taken late at night under a sodium light with the flash on my phone turned off they haven't come out that well...

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For some reason, I'm really not looking forward to taking the cams out, there's something that's quite worrying about doing the job!

David.
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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by DHallworth »

Well the hydraulic pump is almost rebuilt apart from waiting for some gasket paper to make a new gasket that's not even listed on the parts manual.

I've got a new air con condenser from East End Radiators in Glasgow for £50. I've replaced the air con compressor on this engine as the bearings on it sounded a bit noisy and I wasn't happy with them.

I've just dropped the alternator off today to be fully rebuilt. Interestingly the guy was having problems with a P38 Range Rover he's got so I'm going to fix that for him which is going to work quite nicely as it'll cover the cost of the alternator repair.

This bloody Loctite stuff I'm waiting for still hasn't turned up in the post which is really irritating me as I can't get on and get the job of resealing the cam boxes without it!

David.
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CitroJim
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by CitroJim »

DHallworth wrote: For some reason, I'm really not looking forward to taking the cams out, there's something that's quite worrying about doing the job!
It's not as bad as it looks David.

I'll get the stuff we spoke about scanned tomorrow on my day off and I think once you read that you'll be happier. Knowing the torques and tightening sequences for the cam ladders and sump will ease a few worries. I'll post the scans here so that they can be of wider benefit...

Anything else you think you might need from the manual?
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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by DHallworth »

I think I've just seen a few bits that I might of forgotten, things like the clutch buffer guide and screw that go into the end of the engine.

One of the problems of converting an engine that has been mated to an auto box to a manual I guess.

I picked up 5 litres of Total LHM today for £4 a litre from AEP as well as 6 litres of Total 5000 engine oil for £23.

Other then that I *think* I've got everything. I dropped the subframe off the donor tonight so that I can get the steering rack off it, some of the return pipes on it don't look too great so am going to see what I can do with them. Am hoping that it's just surface rust that I can clean off and paint again.

Jim, I think that's all I need from the book, it's the only thing that's jumping to mind anyway.

David.
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DHallworth
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by DHallworth »

The Royal Mail really are a pain in the a*se.

I bought a tub of Loctite 5980 at 01:30am on Friday morning and paid extra for first class delivery. The seller dispatched it very quickly and efficiently on Friday so I was hopeful that it might arrive on Saturday morning. No such luck... I then hoped to see it on Monday morning, again no such luck. It's now Wednesday, the post has been about an hour ago, and again, there's still no bloody sealant.

I can't find anywhere that sells the stuff locally either!

David.
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CitroJim
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Re: David Hallworth's Blog aka All Things V6!

Post by CitroJim »

That's not even third class post David... Fingers crossed it'll be with you very soon...