Driving Xantia in snow

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Post by Citroenmad »

Ive never driven a 1.8 freelander, i was impressed with a rover 75 1.8 though. The freelander would make a good buy if a 4x4 is needed, ours was a great car.
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Post by lurchy666 »

i dunno what i'm going for yet, i really like the look of the old trooper , but i'll see what is on ebay at the time i get the money,
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Post by andmcit »

RANT ALERT!!

With the danger of straying on topic, momentarily this evening my neck of
the woods finally saw some snow! Jammy or unlucky depending on your
point of view! 8) OK, it was wimpy stuff that barely qualified as snow but
it was slimy potentially slippery stuff nonetheless.

Haven't they seen snow here in this part of the world before - surely not?
Clearly not from this showing!

FFS, why can't everyone who actually (it now seems) only 'pretends' to drive
use the gearbox or have some comprehension of how wide their vehicle is.
It was truly embarrassing watching numpties driving on a main de-restricted
open moor country road driving at walking pace with the hazards on. For
Pete's sake, all revs, bling low profile wheels & tyres and constant braking
- truly pathetic. #-o

Yes, my Xantia had an odd little wriggle when I needed to take evasive
action when some idiot tobogganed down the hill aimed straight at me
but no dramas.

Skidpan training should be part of the driving test only it'd cost more money
and we've already spent it all in this washed out pale shadow of it's former
self, f**kedup country.

I think I'm going to need to lie down, my blood pressure is off the scale
thinking about today!

Andrew
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Post by Xaccers »

falling-out-with-my-car wrote:
XantiaMan583 wrote:Mk1's also had eGR on late models. Its easy to disconnect though.
You mean I can actually disconnect the EGR system??

would this not effect emmisions at MOT time? or do I just reconnect it a week before? bearing in mind I don't have a catalytic converter anymore.

regards Nigel.
Yes, stop your engine farting up its own nose :)
Not sure about WVO, but on SVO Cassy's smoke test was lower than when on derv.
All the MoT cares about is smoke.
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Post by citroenxm »

Xac wrote:
falling-out-with-my-car wrote:
XantiaMan583 wrote:Mk1's also had eGR on late models. Its easy to disconnect though.
You mean I can actually disconnect the EGR system??

would this not effect emmisions at MOT time? or do I just reconnect it a week before? bearing in mind I don't have a catalytic converter anymore.

regards Nigel.
Yes, stop your engine farting up its own nose :)
Not sure about WVO, but on SVO Cassy's smoke test was lower than when on derv.
All the MoT cares about is smoke.
Absolutly!

Even more so, remove the turbo that has the EGR valve, throw the EGR away, if you can unscrew it, replace it with a flat plate, then swap the inlet manifold for an early one OR Bung up the inlet hole and watch the performance change!!

Just done this with a 1997 P reg engine into a 1996 N reg car with no EGR system.. world of difference, and the same low to nil smoke content.

Paul
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Post by Citroenmad »

Your right Andrew, a skidpan course as part of the driving test would be a very worth while thing, ive often thought so. Fact is we rarely get snow and when we do people panic, not having a clue what to do or how to go about driving in it. Our cars are very unprepared in the UK as we very very rarely get snow. Some countries do include skid testing into their driving test, winter wheels are commonly used and i can imagine far fewer accidents happen as a result.

The snow has just about gone here. I took the dogs to Hamsterly forest today which still has an awful lot of snow. The car park was virtually untouched snow making it very difficult to get the car in and out, though my C5 did it without too much of a problem, it ground to a halt going in and began to spin the wheels a few times, but good clutch control and working out the best way in and out and i had no problems.

Some idiot in a Honda Civic type-r obviously fogot all about the snow as they drove at high speed into a snow covered field, beaing in mind it was about 6 inchs deep they had no chance. I was unsure of where to park at this point so drove past them and down the forest drive, which turned out to be closed and very full of snow but no places to turn around. Eventually i got turned around, parked back where i was where the civic was still spinning, floor mats out and probably with the engine doing around 6Krpm. I went over and gave them a push, they then got stuck again after trying to park where i did. Too much revs, flooring it and having no idea was the blame, so i eventually left them to it.

As i came back an older couple was stuck on the road in with a newer honda civic, they looked to have been stuck for some time and we gave them a push out.

Meanwhile a Berligo was stuck on the back out and couldnt move, that got towed out with a pickup. They offered to gave me a push out as they had saw where my car was, but i said id be fine. And it was, careful driving, controling the clutch to gain grip and raising the ride height got me out fine, i dont know what all the fuss was about :roll:
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Post by Xaccers »

Andrew, totally agree with skid pan training as being part of the requirements to get your licence.
So it will make being able to drive more expensive, but frankly, as it could save smashing up a car or killing someone, the cost compaired with that is insignificant.
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Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

Andrew,

this is the trouble most new drivers have No spacial awareness at all
they drive looking no further than the end of their bonnet, they can't reverse park without leaving their car stuck in themiddle of the road and have the cheek to complain when others do it.

as for using the gears my son who passed his test three years ago was told to dump the clutch and use his brakes even when going down a steep hill towards a junction. I on the other hand passed my test in 1982 I have been taught to reverse park pass between traffic cones off road with only 12 inches to spare on either side. reverse park between the same cones.
use my gears to slow the car when approaching a downhill junction, and now I always use my gears particularly in icy weather.

I can easily pass a small girlie car driving down the middle of the road in my xantia estate but if I was driving down the middle of the road in my estate she would stop and wait for me to pass holding everyone up.

come to think of it I wouldnt be driving down the middle of the road anyway, because I'm not a girlie and i do know what spacial awareness is.

sometimes I see the modern driving instructors driving alone and they do the most stupid things like pull out infront of you & jump red lights and i wonder who they are teaching to drive and how the hell they got to be a driving instructor, it must be really easy to qualify.

No wonder there is road rage.

Nigel.
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Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

citroenxm wrote:
Xac wrote:
falling-out-with-my-car wrote:
You mean I can actually disconnect the EGR system??

would this not effect emmisions at MOT time? or do I just reconnect it a week before? bearing in mind I don't have a catalytic converter anymore.

regards Nigel.
Yes, stop your engine farting up its own nose :)
Not sure about WVO, but on SVO Cassy's smoke test was lower than when on derv.
All the MoT cares about is smoke.
Absolutly!

Even more so, remove the turbo that has the EGR valve, throw the EGR away, if you can unscrew it, replace it with a flat plate, then swap the inlet manifold for an early one OR Bung up the inlet hole and watch the performance change!!

Just done this with a 1997 P reg engine into a 1996 N reg car with no EGR system.. world of difference, and the same low to nil smoke content.

Paul
Thanks everyone, see all this time and I'm still learnning new things about my car =D>
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Post by XantiaMan »

The K series in the Freelander has to work very hard, and the head gasket suffered from thermal shock when warming up due to the design of the coolant system and position of the thermostat. There was a mod for this, and a new design MLS head gasket with new oil ladder which from what i've heard, done the trick.

They are great engines though when working, the 120bhp 1.8 is very smooth and has a flat torque curve. The VVC version although never in a Freelander is even better although not quite as torquey low down.

Once a HG goes the head can warp, which then needs skimming, BUT the surface once skimmed goes soft, a common problem and not long before it goes again.

With the later HG mod, steel dowels and tip top coolant system they can last a very long time. The early K series was better, with its wet liners which didnt shift as much. I had an example in a Metro and it was a PERFECT engine, taking abuse and never missing a beat or using a drop of oil. When they switched to damp liner the problems really started with the bigger sized variants.


Have a read here, it really is an interesting and misunderstood engine -

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/en ... _the_K.htm
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Post by Xaccers »

I too was taught to floor the clutch when braking, then once decelerated or stopped, select the appropriate gear.
That was the only bit of info my instructor gave me that I disagreed with.
To me, much better to engine brake (touching the brake pedal to let those behind know I'm slowing), changing down through the gears if required, then you're in the gear you need, especially with inexperienced drivers who may fluff their gear selection.
My first car was a 4 speed vauxhall mushroom cavalier, and for the first month or so I got into the bad habbit of selecting 3rd and 4th by moving the stick all the way to the right, in the 5 speed fiesta I was taking lessons in that meant I often selected 5th instead of 3rd.
My instructor had a good way of breaking that habbit though.

At uni a friend took lessons with BSM, from what she told me her instructor wasn't interested in what she was doing behind the wheel, not caring if she crossed her arms etc. Not a problem once you've got your licence, but you need to pass the wheel around from hand to hand in order to pass the test.

There are some excellent instructors out there, and unfortunately there are some who really shouldn't be teaching.
Likewise there are some great examiners, who can tell decent drivers from dangerous ones, and some bad ones (like "King" Arthur who let my sisters ex bf pass if he promised to slow down a bit. He'd often do 60mph in housing areas with cars parked either side of the road so poor visibility).
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Post by Citroenmad »

Thats all true Nigel, i dont agree with the way people are tought how to drive.

I passed my test in 2004, i had always picked up things from my parents driving, slowing down with the gears, not riding the clutch at junctions, etc. I had been driving on private land since i was 11 so i had a pretty good idea before i even started my lessons.

However during my driving lessons i was then told i should not use gears to slow the car, and under no sircumstances use gears and brakes together as that would slow the car down far too quickly. My instructor was also making me hold the car on the clutch at junctions, which i knew was a very bad idea and that i wouldnt be doing it when i passed in my own car. The cars clutch was pretty broken on my instructor car, it squealed like mad when used.

Luckily i only needed 11 lessons and i passed my test. During my lessons i went on one dual carrigeway, once - for about 2 miles, i only drove in perfect conditions, never even had to use the wipers, never drove in the dark, never did any form of bay parking. I was actually driving my own car with my dad teaching me too, which is where i picked up most of my driving ability, not with a driving instructor, they are utter useless at times.

The fact they have bits of tape stuck to the rear windows isnt good. They teach you to park their car, not any car, not a bigger car but their car from aligning the stickers on the windows up with the curb. They never teach you that the front end cuts in when reversing on lock, they dont even mention you should look at there the front of the car is when parallel parking. Your just told to turn on full right lock as soon as the rear wheel is nearing the gutter.

I really didnt enjoy my driving lessons one bit as i thought all of it could be improved on and felt i was only being tought the very basics.

At very least the pass plus course should be a standard thing which every new driver must complete, as this gives you a slightly better understanding and knowledge of driving in different conditions.

You are only taught the most basic of parking manouvers, i never did bay parking as there was no car park at the local testing centre. All i did was turn in the road, parallel park and reversing around a corner.

My main gripe is the clutch issue, holding the clutch to keep the car stationary is one of my pet hates. Why? Its for lazy people with no mechanical know how or sympathy, too lazy to apply the brake or handbrake while stopped. However, a lot of instructors teach you to apply the handbrake when stopped, either on a downhill, uphill or flat road (brilliant). However, while the handbrake is applied, regardless of if the car is flat, pointing down or up a hill, they teach you to bring the clutch up until the front of the car raises slightly - while the handbrake is on. So the clutch is slipping at all times, so they are ready to move away as soon as the handbrake is released its off. I know its teaching a hill start but this if for the whole time the traffic lights are on red. Ive often sat behind a instructor car watching the car sit down as the handbrake is on and the clutch slipping. How poor driving is that, do instructors have a contract with clutch suppliers or something. Exceedingly bad driving and really riles me up that they teach people to do it. Obviously instructors have little knowledge either. Clutches, flywheels and the clutch assemby wont last any time at all with that type of bad driving.

You certainly would not pass an adviced driving test if riding the clutch at junctions and relying on the brakes at every opportunity. Instant fail.

I passed my class 2 HGV test last year (mainly as i wanted to do it and not for a career, though it might come in handy at some point), that was a much more comprehensive test as you can imagine. Though it was expected to use brakes and not gears to slow down, even downhill.

So how people are expected to be able to drive in snow and ice without even being tought how to drive in the rain etc is beyond me. Most of it is common sense, although if its a totally new thing to people then its not going to be easy to pick up. I had a few iffy moments during my first year in the snow, but you soon pick it up and away you go. Ive never had any accidents though.

The number of new drivers who have accidents is shocking, insurance is sky high and people take risk. Had they of been better tought, attending skid pan training etc accidents and deaths would be reduced, so would insurance. So it would hardly be a cost increase at all, but would make the roads much safer for everyone.

Yes its true that we are all still learning and improving our driving, but i feel more knowledge than just the basics should be given through driving lessons.

I had looked into becoming a driving instructor last year but it is such a stressful job, poorly paid and very odd hours, its an awful lot of resposibility.

Though im a very nervous passenger but a very confident driver, so everywhere i go i almost always drive rather than go in a friends of family members car, i prefer to drive. So i wouldnt have made the best driving instructor :lol:

Id like to do an advanced driving course, its something ive been looking into for a while and i think it would be a good thing and benificial. Think thats somehting ill do, i also want to do the towing test.
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Post by Xaccers »

I was taught if you were stationary for more than a few seconds, handbrake on, into neutral (unless the situation made it unsuitable to do that), and certainly don't ride the clutch unless I wanted to fail.
Use the appropriate gear to go down a steep hill. Flooring the clutch and using the brakes only could result in an accident if your foot slipped off the brake.
If your clutch was on the floor and your right foot wasn't on one of the other pedals (ie not even resting on them such as during a gear change) then my instructor considered that you weren't in control of the car.
Although he had the markers on the windows to help with parallel parking, he also went through the actions the car was going to take, ie on full left lock, the bonnet is going to swing out so check over your shoulder for traffic before it does (likewise with reversing around corners).
With the "turn the car around so it is facing the opposite direction using the forward and reverse gears" (3 point turn to you and me) he'd try and find narrower and narrower streets so I'd have to use more than 3 points :D
One day when things just weren't going right, I wasn't in the flow of it and was getting frustrated he got me to drive to the seafront and bought us icecreams.
Other times he'd get me to floor it so I'd be used to those moments when you have to give a burst to get out of trouble while still being in complete control of the car.
We were lucky with the A27 nearby, so got dual carriageway lessons, and Portsdown hill for some very steep hill starts (even though they wouldn't be on the test). I hate it when cars roll back before pulling away!
I did plenty of night driving, mostly around country lanes with my dad sat next to me (ignoring most of the misinformation he was giving).
They're great for learners, you get plenty of notice of oncoming traffic from their lights, you get used to driving in the dark, the roads are narrow and windy so you have to be alert, and you get to see loads of wildlife :)
My instructor also offered motorway lessons once you passed, along from Portsmouth to the New Forrest to see the ponies.
He'd often be approached to become an examiner but always turned them down as he wanted to help produce good drivers rather than be forced to pass mediocre ones.

Oh he was also a fan of the "take the next available left turn" where inevitably the next left would either be no entry or no access to motorised vehicles, just to make sure we were paying attention to the road signs.
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Post by Citroenmad »

Your instructor sounds like he was a good one, mine was ok but i felt that i had not picked up a great deal and sometimes became a little confused as she contradicted herself.

I was a bit miffed when i failed a mock test after going driving down a country road which had just been gritted. (Our council ensures as many stone chips and broken windscreens as possible and poor grip by using very cheap road surfaces, which is basically like pebble dashed roads only finished by cars passing over and pressing the stones into the ground, these surfaces last a few weeks, by which time all of the grit has blocked up the drains and the surface looks worse than ever. So not really gritted but not a new road either.) So it had advisory 20mph signs, now i took these as advisory and not mandatory, so i exceeded 20mph, but only to about 30. My instructor said i should have stuck to the limit and so i failed my mock test. However i checked up on these signs and they are not mandatory as they were not official. I was in the wrong though i guess, but how did i know, she didnt tell me :roll:

That was the only trouble i did have though, i knew how to drive a car before so it was just giving me road sense and getting me out of bad habits. I certainly never stuck the sticker rule to help me park, i parked the car how i knew and she was fine with that so long as i got it correct and kept the car under control.

I was taught to use the brakes going down hills, as modern brakes can cope with that, i was told! However i do use my gears to slow the car down on hills.

I just couldnt wait to pass and drive how i wanted and how i thought was correct. I doubt i would have passed had i not had my dad teaching me at the same time.

I dont think slowing down with gears is looked on as how it should be done now. What people seem to say now it use the brakes and not the gears, brake pads are cheaper than clutches and gearboxes. I am quite hard on brakes though, i use gears to slow down going down hills but not usually for normal conditions when stopping or slowing. I just leave it in gear with the clutch up and brake, changing down to the desired gear i need to move off again. This is how i was told to do it during my HGV training and from an advanced driver.
Last edited by Citroenmad on 13 Jan 2010, 10:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by falling-out-with-my-car »

My Dad tried and failed because i was trying to drive his GSa he said i wasnt reving her hard enough and this led to arguments about how a citroen should be driven....lol

A friend of the family tried and failed again we argued, but once I passed my part two bike test I rode bikes for about a year until a surgeon said youve got to get off bikes because if you have even a minor accident you might not survive so I bought a reliant robin and learn't to drive myself.
a block of refresher lessons and a test later and presto a license.

a rocky road but I got there in the end and I still drive better than some people..lol the Gsa my Dads doing up I am itchin to have a go at driving.
hopefully this time properly...lol.
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