Xantia HDI 110 Clutch slave kaputt..

i3 · Post by i3 » 09 May 2010, 20:26

ok...i gave the bleeding another go today,, better results now,,better than ever before,,, the pedal now feels like it has a lot of resistance in it,,and it comes straight back up as a pedal usually would,,, but i havent tested it yet,,as i took the battery out whilst doing all this,,and it seems dead now,,only the clock comes on,,then when i turn key, even the clock goes off!...so ill have to try recharge it tomorrow.....
i did notice a few things though...firstly,,i noticed that whilst bleeding,,the nipple open pedal down,,fluid comes out nipple through the tupe into container,,,nothing changes on the reservoir,,nipple closed pedal up,,now the reservoir fluid level drops,,, is that normal? the second thing i noticed....today i was using the same fluid to top up the reservoir that had been pumped through the system and out the nipple,,,its a different colour,,slightly,,,its seems a little different,, has it been contaminated from the container? it was clean and only used for water before,,i think.. is the "recycled" fluid fine to use anyways?

Post by **CitroJim** » 09 May 2010, 21:00

That's sounding very good now Isa and I reckon you'll now find you have a clutch! You describe a working one now

The level change in the master cylinder is exactly as expected. No worries there at all. On pedal up the piston in the master cylinder piston moves back and fills with fluid.

It's not really a good idea to reuse fluid that has been bled through. The colour difference is caused the new fluid mixing with old, deteriorated fluid. I was surprised at how much muck and dirt there was in the slave cylinder I pulled apart.

Sounds like you're finally there. Get that battery charged!!!

i3 · Post by i3 » 10 May 2010, 20:09

ok.... got the battery charged and the car started today...discovered two things...ok..firstly...pedal was giving resistance as i described,and coming straight up as the clutch pedal should do,,however with the car started,tried it,,nothing,,wouldnt go into gear,,kept trying it in different gears,,nothing...however with the clutch pedal down i forced it into reverse,, now,,i let the clutch up slowly and the car started to move as it should at the biting point...then i put it back into neutral and now it would actually go into reverse as it should when i put the pedal down...then i tried all the gears and it now goes into gear and the car moves as it should at biting point....

is that okay?,,or did i mess something up by forcing it into reverse the first time?....now,,,ive discovered something new...the alarm keeps setting off,,when i open door,close door,car started,,whatever,,it just keeps setting off,,then it will turn off,,then start again after short while..?? what is happening here? i tried locking/unlocking doors,,no effect...what should i do?

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 May 2010, 20:19

Excellent

I reckon the clutch plate was just a bit rusted up and stiff from long lack of use and now it is freed... Good stuff. It now sounds normal enough to me.

Alarm problem is odd. The normal method to reset it is to disconnect battery, wait a while and then reconnect battery with the ignition off.

Then turn on the ignition whilst holding down the dashboard switch that looks like it has a crossed-out loudspeaker symbol on it. It's the ultrasonic defeat button but also acts as an alarm reset button as the ignition is turned on. As you reset the alarm, the hazards should flash a few times and everything should then settle.

HDI Dave · Post by **HDI Dave** » 10 May 2010, 20:48

Thank god that's sorted..this thread was turning into an epic novel! lol,only jesting.

I said it sounded just like mine didn't i, it just needed a good bleed

And i think Jims nipple saved the day,as it was more controllable for a novice,nice one Jim

I agree with Jim,maybe the plate had surface rust on,etc, or you might also have expelled a bit of extra air out as well.

Sounds like the original garage sorted the job 95%...then couldn't suss out how to bleed the hydraulic sealed,clutch system/find a workoround...

Either way, good result

i3 said:
" the second thing i noticed....today i was using the same fluid to top up the reservoir that had been pumped through the system and out the nipple,,,its a different colour,,slightly,,,its seems a little different,, has it been contaminated from the container? it was clean and only used for water before,,i think.. is the "recycled" fluid fine to use anyways?"

If it was me, i'd be topping up/pumping through new brake fluid every time..it's false economy to re use fluid,it gets dirt/air/water in it etc,and it doesn't cost a lot new...but in your case..if it's working ok..i'd just say sod it,before you could make it worse!!! lol.

p.s,maybe someone could condense this thread/info..and bung it in the common problems/fix archives? for future 'sealed clutch' problem owners?
just a thought

[/quote]

Post by **CitroJim** » 11 May 2010, 06:52

HDI Dave wrote: p.s,maybe someone could condense this thread/info..and bung it in the common problems/fix archives? for future 'sealed clutch' problem owners?
just a thought

Good idea Dave. I have a photo of the "MK2" version of the bleed nipple adapter.

Would you mind, as you provided the lion's share of the information and without you all this would never have happened, if I post it up on my website?

HDI Dave · Post by **HDI Dave** » 11 May 2010, 09:15

No worries Jim, you go for it mate,I don't have the patience to trawl through it all again!
Maybe this workaround might save some sealed system cars from being scrapped,ie:
Citroen Dealers = £400+ for the system
Wet bleed = Nowt

Jims altered elbow + nipple = couple of quid if you've a lathe?

MK 2 version eh? hmm,sounds interesting,lets see it then

i3 · Post by i3 » 13 May 2010, 23:24

hey guys,,,sorry i didnt post any sooner,,i was just a little busy trying to figure out what i needed to do with the car to get it through the mot...well,,turns out i need a front brake drivers brake pad and the suspension sorting...
i really would like to thank you all for the help especially Jim and Dave, and for that magical part Jim,, without all of which from you i dont think i would have been able to get anywhere near to getting the car running again... thank you so much guys

now i really dont want to bug you guys again after all the frustration i must have put you through with all my questions,,but i truly am a novice when it comes to car mechanics... i couldnt even change an oil filter on a nissan once i tried in the past,, lol...
but i just was wondering if you could give me some advice with the suspension,, i have noticed that with the ignition on car off the suspension the car wont raise when i move the lever,,it will drop slowly,back and front when i move the lever to low setting... with the car started it moves the through the full range of the lever settings,,,when putting to low setting, the front starts to drops first and faster, the back begins to drop after the front and slower...when raising it to full height the front begins first then the back begins to rise up and the back and front go up at pretty much the same speed...this is the only thing i have done...i have driven it up and down the road on hard mode and soft mode and im pretty sure i can tell a difference,,but that may just be in my head?? when i was driving once,,when i first got the car before it stopped,, at around 70-60ish on the dual carriageway, i realised late i had to take the exit and i braked as much as i could but i just went for the turn anyway,,sort of threw it into a 90degree bend,,,to be honest i already thought i had understeered off the wrong side of the road,,but it held literally like it was on rails,, didnt even leave my lane let alone road! so im sure something must be working correctly right?? anyhow,,,what should i do? should i take the car somewhere? or would i be able to repair myself? without giving you guys too much headaches

is it just spheres that need changing? westroen spheres quoted £240 supply and fitting for all spheres...but theyre in manchester... the mot station said to me a local french specialist would do the front two spheres for me for £120 supplied and fitted... what should i do? are spheres hard to change?

Chris570 · Post by **Chris570** » 14 May 2010, 08:37

just so you get a reply here, but £120 for two spheres fitted is excessive i would say.

the car won't rise really with the engine off, it might rise a little bit but not much as it needs the engine running to have the hydraulic pressure.

what exactly did the MOT station say it failed on with the suspension

Post by **CitroJim** » 14 May 2010, 08:55

Well, firstly, I'me delighted the clutch is now OK

And Dave, I'll get something up on my website.Thanks...

Never worry about questions and so on, it's what we're here for!!

Spheres are easy enough to swap. Have a look at this "Sticky" that tells all you need to know. After what you've just done, a sphere will be a job before Sunday breakfast!!! They really are not difficult.

Agreed the prices you have been quoted are dear. Spheres are around £20 each from GSF...

As you say Chris, we need to know what the MOT man said. A car will fail on flat spheres as they will cause the suspension to be rock hard with no damping... Usual MOT fail is because of leaks.

How you describe the handling is a bout right for a Hydractive car

HDI Dave · Post by **HDI Dave** » 14 May 2010, 09:00

i3 wrote: with the ignition on car off the suspension the car wont raise when i move the lever,,it will drop slowly,back and front when i move the lever to low setting... with the car started it moves the through the full range of the lever settings,,,when putting to low setting, the front starts to drops first and faster, the back begins to drop after the front and slower...when raising it to full height the front begins first then the back begins to rise up and the back and front go up at pretty much the same speed...

Sounds just like mine,ie..normal! albeit parts will be old/stiff/dry etc so a bit of jerkiness would be expected.

Ah,Chris beat me to it lol.
*edit..and Jim!!! haha.
The engine needs to be on to 'pump it up'.
I'm new to all this citroen malarky myself,so i could be talking absolute b@llocks of course

I'm sure someone else will explain citrobics properly.
Brake pads aren't that hard to do.If you managed the clutch, the brakes should be a walk in the park.Bung it through the mot and then see what it fails on,instead of changing random parts first.

Glad to hear it's a runner now

Start a new post for this or future problems before it turns into a 57 page thread

HDI Dave · Post by **HDI Dave** » 10 Jun 2010, 13:24

CitroJim wrote:
HDI Dave wrote: p.s,maybe someone could condense this thread/info..and bung it in the common problems/fix archives? for future 'sealed clutch' problem owners?
just a thought

Good idea Dave. I have a photo of the "MK2" version of the bleed nipple adapter.
quote]

Is this more condensed version ok to bung in the common problems / fixes,or sticky area Jim?
Also,feel free to move around / add / edit anything i've missed out,and your MK2 version etc

How to bleed a 'sealed' Xantia Hydraulic Clutch

Models covered:
S2 HDI 110
*please add,some xm's etc,struggling already Jim, haha*

Symptoms: Clutch pedal on the floor,useless.

This is from my own experience, Xantia HDI 110, but may cover many others.

Car drove fine,then went BANG.No clutch.Mate had to crash the 'box to get home. When we got it apart, the release bearing had separated from the clutch plate..total destruction,wrecking the slave push rod as a parting gift..

CitroJim explains here:
The whole clutch hydraulic assembly is one of those "sealed for life" jobs. If bought new, they come in two parts, separated at the blue bullet connector. You install both ends and pop the bullet together and that's it. job done.
Replacing the master cylinder is an absolute dockyard job and to be avoided if at all possible
Problem is, the blue bullet won't come apart again and to renew the whole assembly will cost the debt of a small nation. They are very expensive so having a go at bleeding is worthwhile...

The clutch slave cylinder is a push fit, (bayonet style),into the gearbox. Here it is seen from above,the green arrow shows it,and also points to the front of the car.

There is no bleed nipple on it.
So if your pushrod has come out or you've lost pressure/fluid etc..how on earth are you supposed to bleed it?

Here's how, quite simple really:

Take the clutch slave out of the bellhousing.
Take out the pin of the fluid pipe union which holds it into the slave.We had to grind the head off the pin,although you might need to drill it etc.
Place the slave stood up somewhere and fill with fluid.
Then, put a clear pipe on the end of the cable nipple, (which fits into the slave).
Take the top off the small reservoir near the bulkhead,put plenty rags round it.
Syringe fluid up the pipe untill the reservoir is brimming.Take off the clear pipe and wet connect it to the slave,trying not to lose any fluid.

Still next to no travel/clutch?
Take the pipe back off the slave and hold it near, tight, and wet bleed from the pedal end.

This worked fine for me,took half an hour,if that,with an assistant.

Here's a more detailed description which nearly got a complete novice back on the road:

Take the slave out of the bellhousing. Disconnect the fluid pipe again whilst trying not to lose any fluid.Plug the end of the fluid pipe.
Place the slave vertical somewhere. Get some thin,clear pipe,i used some fish tank pipe.

copied your pic and it's gone tiny! anyway:
Stick the clear pipe over the metal nipple on the end of the fluid pipe,arrowed in the pic. Take the top off the bulkhead reservoir and put rags round it.Syringe fluid into the clear pipe which should expell most of the air out of the reservoir.Should get plenty bubbles,then carry on untill the res is full,brimming.
Take the clear pipe off the end of the fluid pipe nipple and quickly place your finger over it,so no fluid can get out.
This is where the mrs, or assistant comes in:
The pedal should now be in the correct ish place,ie,in the middle,not on the floor.
Part 1.) Hold the full clutch slave vertical. Get the mrs to gently press the clutch pedal while you still have your finger over the end of the pipe.You should feel pressure.Then quickly connect the fluid pipe to the slave,whilst fluid is being squeezed out,so air can't get in. When connected,make sure the bulkhead res is full,and the mrs can then let go of the pedal. Put the small pin back in the slave (holding the fluid pipe on). Put the connected slave,with its pushrod,back in the bellhousing.

You could try the clutch now,but i found air was still in there so wifey comes in useful again:
Part 2.) This can be a bit tricky,as it's under pressure,but a bit of persistance and swearing works well:
Keep the bulkhead res full.Take the pin out of the slave whilst holding the metal fluid pipe end,do not press the pedal,as the pipe will shoot off the slave.
With the mrs gently pushing on the pedal,let the pipe out of the slave very slightly,while you push hard against it (i think i used a big bar in the end,wedged against something and the metal connector). Fluid should pi$$ out.While mrs is on the downstroke,force the connector back in.Once it's in,the pedal can be released. It's just like bleeding the brakes,but we're manually moving the connector in and out of the slave, instead of turning a bleed nipple
You may have to repeat this a few times,keeping an eye on the bulkhead reservoir level.
You can tell if it's working as the pedal gets more of a spring in it.

In the end, CitroJim saved i3's day

I'm presuming you now have Jims' modified elbow in your slave cylinder,as in his pic:

..with the bleed nipple screwed in,straight,flush, not cross threaded or owt... And the plastic pipe heatgunned onto the ridged/barbed connector.

Have you ever bled brakes before? Same ish proceedure.I only ask because your mechanicing skills sound quite limited, and part of this proceedure could be tricky...

In theory you should always keep the master cylinder full.Screw the bleed nipple in.Bolt the slave in the g/box.Put a clear plastic pipe over the nipple with the other end in a clear glass jar/milk bottle with brake fluid in,so air can't get back in. Then,bleed it from the pedal end,with someone to work the pedal.Only open the bleed nipple on the downstroke..then tighten before the pedal can be released.Loads of fluid/air should pump through. When the fluid is clear..in the pipe into the jar..it should be free of air...

Still might not be though,so you'd have to carefully take the slave out,without pressing the pedal,as the rod would shoot out...and push the rod inwards,whilst working the bleed nipple,expelling any trapped air in the slave itself.

Condensed from my original post/thread - there's more details/info of the clutch / gearbox / pushrod part nos etc in here:
http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... sc&start=0

Thanks to all involved,especially Jim. oh,i nicked your pictures also,hope you don't mind

Post by **xantia_v6** » 11 Jun 2010, 07:07

Just to make you jealous, LHD Xantia with hydraulic clutch got a proper clutch fluid reservoir from October 1998.

and is that a bleed valve on the end of the slave?

Note the switch (16) on the clutch pedal, is that a cruise control isolator or something else?

Post by **CitroJim** » 11 Jun 2010, 20:55

Mike, yes

We are jealous of that reservoir and bleedable slave cylinder....

Dave, excellent work

Please always feel free to use any image I've posted

Here's a shot of my "MK2" bleed nipple as used by i3

aneesh84 · Post by **aneesh84** » 13 Jan 2016, 16:10

Hi Have a March 1999 2.0 HDI Xantia. The clutch went right to the floor and the hydraulic fluid level was very low. Then i pulled the clutch back and now it seems very hard to push towards the end and cant be pushed fully. The gears also dont change with the engine running.

1. Does it indicate that the slave cylinder rod is out?

2. Why is the clutch being hard to push now?

3. can this newer bleed type cylinder fit my car?
http://www.mister-auto.co.uk/en/slave-c ... JK121.html

4. Does the whole clutch kit necessarily need changing or changing the clutch release bearing could be enough?

French Car Forum

Xantia HDI 110 Clutch slave kaputt..

Re: Xantia HDI 110 Clutch slave kaputt..