C5 2.2 Hdi Swirl Valve Actuator

[cachaciero]

Thanks for that, although a couple of hours is mighty frustrating for such a simple part ! Does the EGR pipe really need to come off ? Seems a shame to rip open the clamp holding it onto the water jacket thing. Also I'm going to need arms like Paul the Octopus to get to the clamps holding the air pipe onto the turbo to release it !
I was thinking about trying to wiggle a long driver down between the wires and pipes from the top whilst getting someone else to guide the T20 bit home into the screws from underneath ? See that - someone else is underneath with all the rubbish falling on them and i get the clean job !

I'll give the FAP another blast, and will need to pop over to see a friend locally who has a Lexia to clear the faults, and may complete a forced regen. Last time we tried it faulted part way through due to the collant cap seal failing and spewing coolant out of the expansion tank onto the road. Fingers crossed it will clear, as the records show it being changed reasonably recently, and it hasn't been run without Eolys.

Tim

I know it seems a drag but there is a replacement clamp with an allan bolt for the EGR clamp getting the old clamp of is the hard part after that it's easy also gives you a chance to de-coke the pipe as well:-) I would never ever say that you do have to do it this way as some clever so and so will undoubtedly prove me wrong but I do reckon it is the quickest and easist way to do the job. I don't think without removing the bits around it you can get a "straight run" at the T20's even if somebody could guide the bit into the screws.
The job does look more daunting than it really is.
TIP:- I noticed on mine after I fitted the new actuator that the shaft does not line aup with the swirl valve arm properly, stands about 3/4 inch proud, o.k it will flex and connect but if I ever have it out again I will bend a joggle into the wire shaft so it aligns better.

TIP 2 If working with the airfilter box open ensure air inlet in the bottom of box is stuffed with a rag or something sockets and screws disappear down the hole very easily and can take a bit of fishing out.

I am a bit confused about air pipes to turbo I do remember that I had to disconnect an air pipe underneath to get access but doesn't stick in mind as to which one or it being more difficult than the average job on a Cit

cachaciero

[tmead]

OK, so being a real scaredy-cat when it comes to taking apart more than I have to (and probably breaking some stuff along the way) this has now been completed without removing any other components. i figured that because I could actually see all three screw heads when I looked carefully down beside the actuator arm/balljoint there must be a way of undoing them !

Having disconnected the electrical connector from the valve down by the airbox to isolate the swirl diaphragm and not had any ESP/ASR faults it is defintiely the actuator leak as lots of other people have had.

You need some patience, and a steady hand. I have a magnetic pickup tool with a light on the end, and it's great for poking down in an around to illuminate the screws.
With a T20 1/4 drive bit you can get to the screws straight down beside the wire, and then you'll need about 2 feet of extensions ! It really helps to have someone underneath to guide the bit into the screw. You can reach up after removing the undertray (lots of tie wraps - this was not original fitment !) and turbo - intercooler pipe (two bolts and two jubilee clips). The person underneath will also be able to hold/catch the screw/look for it when it falls out !

The main vacuum pipe has a clip and then slides off the vac pump connector to allow a bit more access for poking the extensions down through to the lower two screws. Just remember to put it back on, otherwise the brakes really don't work well when you start to drive away !

When you put the new unit in from underneath you can fit the vac hose to keep it roughly in place, then clip it on the ball joint from the top and then reach up from underneath and fit one of the screws. you can only really get your fingers to one I think, the other two have to come down from the top superglued to the end of the T20 bit. It's definitely worth buying a couple of extra screws, as you are going to drop some !

OK, now I will be upset if the dreaded ESP/ASR light comes back on !

Tim

[cachaciero]

O

OK, now I will be upset if the dreaded ESP/ASR light comes back on !

Tim

Nice one Tim of course the other potential source of leaks in this system is the turbo actuator itself but then you checked that as well when you were underneath didn't you

Rgds Cachaciero

[tmead]

Chuckle ! It looked good, moved well and the hoses were secure. Can't ask for more really !
Unplugging electrical connection to the swirl control valve down by the air filter case resulted in several drives without the esp/asr fault, where previosuly it was coming up pretty frequently, so I'm quite confident for the moment. Something else is bound to be about to break now, but at least it's all sorted for the moment in time for it's return to the spiritual homeland when we head off on holiday over the channel !

Tim

[acrowot]

Chuckle ! It looked good, moved well and the hoses were secure. Can't ask for more really !
Unplugging electrical connection to the swirl control valve down by the air filter case resulted in several drives without the esp/asr fault, where previosuly it was coming up pretty frequently, so I'm quite confident for the moment. Something else is bound to be about to break now, but at least it's all sorted for the moment in time for it's return to the spiritual homeland when we head off on holiday over the channel !

Tim

Tim, is this the swirl control valve, I thought it was not?
[img][img]http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr15 ... CF0074.jpg[/img][/img]

[cachaciero]

Chuckle ! It looked good, moved well and the hoses were secure. Can't ask for more really !
Unplugging electrical connection to the swirl control valve down by the air filter case resulted in several drives without the esp/asr fault, where previosuly it was coming up pretty frequently, so I'm quite confident for the moment. Something else is bound to be about to break now, but at least it's all sorted for the moment in time for it's return to the spiritual homeland when we head off on holiday over the channel !

Tim

Tim, is this the swirl control valve, I thought it was not?
[img][img]http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr15 ... CF0074.jpg[/img][/img]

No it's not, swirl valve is underneath the flexible air pipe just aft of the MAF.

cachaciero

[acrowot]

cachaciero, thanks again, it's just that on reading this thread and reading that tmead said that the swirl valve was down by the air filter that he meant the one in the picture but obviously not. I have yet to investigate this. I have very poor fuel consumption, sluggish from standstill and then a kick in the back. Similar probs to you with the auto box aroun town upto 35mph is still in second even on light throttle. Awaiting a replacement Lexia, been promised it for next Saturday but this is a Chinese promise I do not believe that all promises are equal.
John

[tmead]

I believe this is the electro-valve that controls the vacuum for the swirl diaphragm ? Certainly when I disconnected the electrical connector from this one and ran the car the issue with the esp/asr light was gone. It could be a coincidence, but when I replaced the swirl diapragm and then re-connected this, the esp/asr issue has not come back ?

I'm not 100%, but thought that if the actuator was not functioning correctly the default position was for the low revs setting ? I have read other threads about the ball/socket connector breaking on the end of the actuator rod, and then the swirl valves would be flopping unpredictably, and may be wrong. Could be worth taking a look at the swirl actuator which operates a little arm on the end of the head close up to the vacuum pump. Apparently you should see the actuator should operate at around 2100 rpm.

Tim

[acrowot]

I believe this is the electro-valve that controls the vacuum for the swirl diaphragm ? Certainly when I disconnected the electrical connector from this one and ran the car the issue with the esp/asr light was gone. It could be a coincidence, but when I replaced the swirl diapragm and then re-connected this, the esp/asr issue has not come back ?

I'm not 100%, but thought that if the actuator was not functioning correctly the default position was for the low revs setting ? I have read other threads about the ball/socket connector breaking on the end of the actuator rod, and then the swirl valves would be flopping unpredictably, and may be wrong. Could be worth taking a look at the swirl actuator which operates a little arm on the end of the head close up to the vacuum pump. Apparently you should see the actuator should operate at around 2100 rpm.

Tim

Thanks tim, sorry to labour this point but are you saying that the EV in my picture does control the Swirl Valve?.
John

[cachaciero]

I believe this is the electro-valve that controls the vacuum for the swirl diaphragm ? Certainly when I disconnected the electrical connector from this one and ran the car the issue with the esp/asr light was gone. It could be a coincidence, but when I replaced the swirl diapragm and then re-connected this, the esp/asr issue has not come back ?

I can't explain why it should have affected your problem unless by coincidence as the swirl valve EV is as I previously said the one under the air pipe from the MAF very adjacent to the swirl valve arm, almost directly below it. Mind if you have a hole in the diaphragm the effects of this can be variable, with mine I had five small holes in the diaphragm some days it would fail every journey yet other times I could go two or three days with no problem.

I'm not 100%, but thought that if the actuator was not functioning correctly the default position was for the low revs setting ? I have read other threads about the ball/socket connector breaking on the end of the actuator rod, and then the swirl valves would be flopping unpredictably, and may be wrong. Could be worth taking a look at the swirl actuator which operates a little arm on the end of the head close up to the vacuum pump. Apparently you should see the actuator should operate at around 2100 rpm.

You would think it logical that the default i.e failed condition would be for low revs and so it was as originaly designed, something which threw me for a while when I originaly investigated this as the Bosch / Citroen Training manual says that it does work this way.
However for some reason Citroen changed the logic shortly after the car was introduced, such that the system now fails / defaults to the open position.
EDITED
At rest / idle the arm will be forward i.e open, as soon as the engine is started the arm should move rearward i.e closed and at about 2100 will move forward again if the fuel demand is high enough, not sure that this condition will be reached "no load"

As regards the ball and socket breaking there have been a few reports of these breaking and several where it just disconnects and keeps disconnecting both these faults are almost certainly due to the poor alignment of the shaft and valve operating arm hence my sugestion that a "joggle " be put in the arm to better align it.

Tim

cachaciero

[tmead]

That is what I believe, having traced out the pipes. You'll see one of the pipes is a vacuum connection (upper one), and the other (yellow stripe connector elbow) heads off low down, into a heatshield cover, and then pops out deep down behind the engine and connects up to the swirl actuator. Quite why it was appropriate to put one valve here and three up by the bulkhead I don't know, and why there are a multitude of different pipe runs to and from the engine doesn''t make sense either !

Try disconnecting the electrical connector (I did) and see if it makes any difference. there's a little tongue underneath that you need to wiggle to release the connector. It will be fine for a short time, but if you're leaving it off for a while you should cover the connector and socket to keep the crap out.

I don't think it will make much difference for the issue you describe (but willing to be proved wrong). You shuold also take a look at the mechanical aspects of the actuator to make sure it is connected properly and not jammed. I'm sure if you hunt around you will find a diagram of the parts, I can't remember which forum it was, but I found a thread with a picture.

If you're not getting an esp/asr fault then it can't be a vacuum leak on the diaphragm or pipework, so you need to look at the mecahnical stuff.

Tim

[cachaciero]

I have edited the description I gave of swirl valve operation on account of the fact that the brain cell was suffering from a lack of cachaca (Brazilian rum) an I got it wrong (shuffles of to nearest corner and hangs head in shame).

cachaciero

[bonnybrigg]

I've just purchased a second hand C5 2.2 hdi estate and with the help of this post diagnosed a faulty swirl valve actuator. In the process I replaced two EV's and got all the piping for them from a breakers yard all for £10.
I used the spare pipe work to attach it to the vacuum pipe from the EV to the swirl valve activator to suck on the pipe and found that when I sucked on it the actuator failed to maintain its pressure. This caused the intermittent ESP/ABS anti pollution fault. I've meantime blocked the vacuum hose to the swirl valve actuator and the fault has gone. I have ordered a new one and will fit it . Whilst sucking on these pipes may have certain health and safety implications, it was a very quick way of diagnosing the problem.
Thank you to all on this post for the information. The fault was driving me nuts and my wife was wondering if I was ever coming out from the bonnet of the car as I seemed to be spending most of my spare time there!!

[bonnybrigg]

Just changed the swirl valve actuator.

I had to remove the air filter box and the large bore pipe that passes from it, to the rear of the engine and also the plastic pipe underneath the engine which takes air from the inter-cooler to the turbo. You have to do this in order to get your arm up through the rear of the engine, to the rear of the actuator, to get the hose off the rear of the actuator and pull it out to remove it and to refit the knew one in the correct position.

I then passed a torx screw on a long extension through where the actuator arm comes from. If you look down the arm with a good torch or lamp you will see the three screws which hold the actuator housing in place. If you have a bought a new one have a look at it to get an idea of what you are looking for. I then unscrewed the three screws and then from underneath the engine, where I had removed the plastic hosing, I could reach up, disconnect the vacuum hose (which was the trickiest part as they are often hard to remove as they have stuck on due the passage of time) from the actuator and then it just dropped out.

Re fitting is just the reverse.

It was about a 2 hour job and any decent mechanic should be able to do it in this time.

However having the long adapter (about 2 ft long) which I could fit a torx screw to the end (sorry forgot to note the size) was a must.

Also a telescopic magnet, designed for fishing dropped screws etc. out of awkward to reach places was very handy.

I could only fit two of the mounting screws back in, but, given the nature of the forces on the screws (i.e. the valve will push aginst the bracket when activated) I'm sure it will last for another 130 000 miles!

[tmead]

Glad you sorted it ! I changed mine in the same way - a spot of superglue on the torx bit to hold the screw as its fed down through to the actuator on refitting helped a bunch !

I can see where other people have found benefit from stripping off more stuff like the EGR kit, but it seemed like making more work to me, and more risk of not quite getting pipes back correctly, introducing other leaks etc.

Tim