New Member/Citroen C3 1.4 HDI 16v

broyty · Post by **broyty** » 26 Apr 2009, 00:47

Hi James QB we are in the process of repairing a c3 with the same symptoms as yours in the last year it has had 2 sets of injectors, 1 injector wiring loom, egr valve, 3 fuel filters, ecu, turbo, coolant temp sensor cam position sensor and many hours of diagnostics at 2 main stealer's it has now come to us from the dealer with him saying it is scrap and we say at 70,000 miles no way,
after a good diagnostic session on the lexia it seems that the ecu and injectors are not talking to each other as the ecu is forgetting where the injectors are and it is fueling wrong it is my belief that there is a problem with the main ecu to engine wiring on the com link we are removing the wiring on monday to test it and i will post our findings / fixes on this forum,
This problem only seems to affect 2003/04 cars with this specific delphi system

cheers
Mick

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 27 Apr 2009, 02:45

Hi Mick, this seems almost too good to be true. The stress and worry, not to mention local embarrassment caused by our C3 has been ongoing for 2 years now, and what has always baffled me is that the problem has never got worse over that time, but remained exactly the same; I just find that odd if it's injector wear.

Another puzzling thing is why the fault began very suddenly and was as bad on the first day it appeared as it is now: one morning two years ago my wife went to the car to go to work in the C3 and it started instantly as it always did - after barely cranking the engine. Sounded nice and quiet and smooth, and drove well. That evening she parked our perfectly running C3 outside the house. The following morning she went out to start it and found it took a lot of cranking before there was any life at all. When it finally caught, white/grey smoke came out the exhaust and the car sounded like a bag of nails. It was hesitant, lumpy and lacking in its usual power. Even when warm it sounded like a tractor at lower revs, quieting and becoming smoother to an extent with higher revs. A neighbour heard it pulling off and said it sounded like the exhaust had blown as it'd become so noisy. Only hours before it was perfect, so something went very wrong very quickly and suddenly. Fast-forward two years and it's the same now as it was then, even down to being easier to start on a very hot day, with less smoke coming out at start-up.

I've always found it hard to stomach that 4 injectors failed that night while the car was parked or when it was started the following morning. If only 1 or 2 failed, then why didn't it give the occasional kick from working cylinders while cranking even if it wouldn't self-run until after lots of cranking? I assume it would, just like a petrol does when some cylinders sporadically fire during starting when there's an issue affecting one or two other cylinders?

If it's injector nozzle wear, why did it start so suddenly and hasn't got worse in 2 years. If it's some other failure in the injectors, why are all 4 affected at the same time (I assume if they were going one at a time over a period, then there'd be something noticeable, like poorer running, some smoke, or getting a bit harder to start?) and if it's not all 4, wouldn't we hear the other 2 cylinders firing during cranking instead of an unresponsive engine (I'm not that savvy on HDis)?

When I read that you think the ECU is forgetting where the injectors are, it reminded me of one of the many posts I've seen on the Internet about injector failures on the 1.4 16V HDi C3 in which the person writing the post put that their C3 had identical symptoms to ours, and that when citroen updated the ECU software, it was okay for a week, then it reverted back to how it was - hard to start, smoking and noisy. Citroen updated the software again but this time the car was only right for 24 hours. Seemed very confusing and even a new ECU didn't cure it. Never did see a resolution to that person's issues, but I never understood why updating sorted it out for varying lengths of time. With what you've said, maybe the update was giving the ECU the right info for the injectors again, but lack of talking between injectors and ECU messed it up again shortly after?

Must admit I don't understand about the ECU knowing where the injectors are, nor what the main ecu to engine wiring com link is, and how it's different to the injector wiring loom, but I'm really hoping you find something out that may help, because we're now stuck with a car that Citroen want £1600 to change injectors (and if it's not them, we still have to pay and then they can try changing other suspects, they tell us), we're still paying finance on, trading standards advised taking the dealership to court which we can't afford, and we cannot sell in its current condition because no one will touch it and considering what it cost us, we can't give it away.

Also interesting you say it only seems to affect 2003/04 ones, as when mother-in-law's car had same symptoms that Citroen dealer fixed under warranty, her's was a 2003, like ours. The C3s all use the DV4TED4 engine, don't they? But do they all use the Delphi injection system or do post-2004 use others, as I've seen Bosch and Siemens injectors advertised as having come from 1.4 16V HDi C3s...

All those parts you said it has had over the past year, were they to try and fix the problem you now have it for, or were you just noting all the things it's needed in general in only one year?

Many thanks,
James

broyty · Post by **broyty** » 28 Apr 2009, 07:20

Hi James
I will try to answer your questions in basic terms,
It seems all the cars affected have the delphi C6 system fitted,
All the parts fitted over the last year were fitted by the dealers to try to fix the problem,
The dealer who sold the car gave the customer his money back this is how we got the car basically to use as a test bed,
over the last week we have cured the starting and smoke on tickover this was down to the egr and wastegate solonoid valves bleeding to mutch vacume which was not closing the egr valve and wastegate correctly the egr valve also required cleaning out,
the car now starts as it should and drives smoothly and quietly the problem left is at 2000 rpm we now get incorrect fueling leading to smoke,
this is where we are now checking the engine wiring loom there was one wire in the big round connector on the top lefy of the engine not making proper contact this also went some way to curing this problem,
As i said as an indy with 4or5 of these cars on our books this is a real gift to have a car with these problems with no time frame to find the fix we can systematicaly go through the cars systems not having to worry about the cost to the customer ,
i hope this gives you some hope for your car where are you in the country if you are in our area we will be happy to meet you or your local indy and talk you through the fixes in more detail
cheers
Mick

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 29 Apr 2009, 18:32

Thanks for explaining those things Mick, and I'm glad that you have almost sorted out the car (outdid the dealers!), as well as being excited about the hope it may bring for my own. Not good that Citroen dealers are not finding the cause of the problems but are changing lots of expensive parts which would normally be at the customer's expense. I've read a few cases of C3s with problems like mine having been to the dealers but they find themselves stumped as to what's causing the problems, some after having changed injectors and/or ecu at customer's cost.

Have sent you a PM, but will say thanks again here for offering to meet and help explain what you've done on the C3 you have there. I'm in North Wales so seeing you is sadly not an option because of distances and work, but I really appreciate the offer. I want to explore the fixes you carried out more and check out my C3 as far as I can. Off work Fri and Sat so will hopefully start on it then.

All the best,
James

broyty · Post by **broyty** » 29 Apr 2009, 23:12

Hi James have sent you a pm with my phone no i will be happy to talk you through your problems

cheers
Mick

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 03 May 2009, 20:34

A bit of an update (sorry haven't got around to phoning you Mick, didn't want to call this evening as it's a Sunday...). Weather bad here in rainy North Wales on Friday so didn't look at car, spent whole day on it Saturday instead.

Removed EGR valve and associated metal pipe that goes to inlet manifold. The end of the metal pipe had 1/4 of its height taken up by rock solid carbon build-up that I first hacked at then dissolved using some industrial oven cleaner. EGR valve was terribly coked up and took me lots of time hacking and using cleaner on. Eventually got the inlet clean, then pushed onto the valve end that was visible there to open the valve, and poured some cleaner in there a few times, leaving it there for an hour to do its job. Liquid was dark black when I poured it out. I didn't detach the metal pipe from the EGR valve because it's the non-reusable collar clip on this car and a new one is £10! Not only that, parts department closed on Saturday at local stealers. Before removing the carbon, poured cleaner into inlet and it went nowhere, so assume valve was not stuck in open position.

I noted that thick carbon build-up and chunky carbon crystals were inside the opening to the inlet manifold where metal pipe goes, as was the exhaust outlet that EGR bolts in front of. Didn't have time or inclination to remove inlet manifold to clean as meant removing injector pipes and I don't have a crow's foot adapter or new seals.

Put EGR valve back on and removed and plugged the vacuum pipe to it, so it's disabled. Then tried car. Thought it was fully cured at first when it started first time quickly (never spews big, thick cloud of smoke if it starts very quickly either) after putting it all back together, with it having been sitting there for 6 hours since its last start. But then I noticed that there was some smoke coming out the exhaust which worsened when car was revved. No big plumes, but enough to see coming out.

Took it for a drive and it was like a different car - the hesitation, lumpiness, fartiness and lack of torque till around 2300 revs had all disappeared. Smoother and more powerful with more torque at low end. What a difference, I could dare overtake again! Seems to not smoke at constant low revs like it did before when driving at low speed, at least not noticeable to me in driving seat.

I didn't get too excited about it starting quickly though, as that's happened before even after 6 hours of sitting. I was right to be dubious. The acid test is to leave it overnight. Jumped in it this morning to go to Starlag 17 (work) and it took plenty of cranking to start, although perhaps slightly less than normal. Plume of white smoke when it started, although the plume seemed smaller and didn't continue being belched out as long as usual. Pulled off expecting it to be lumpy and farty as hell, perhaps barely able to accelerate even in first because of the farting and hesitating, but was amazed when it pulled off powerfully and relatively smoothly. No more behaving as though it's got cylinders full of oil that it's trying to burn off, with the lumpiness you'd get from that as cylinders don't fire properly. I was amazed.

So, a bit further forward. Seems that I will be needing to buy a new solenoid valve for the EGR, it must be leaky like your one was Mick. Can't test the one going to the turbo though, of course. Just puzzled as to why such an improvement in drivability, but still the starting trouble? Still seems a bit noisy when driving, especially when accelerating which is when the engine seems to rattle (or tap?) more. Rattle is perhaps closer to the noise. Growly as well.

Incidentally, checked ECU to main engine wiring round connector top left of engine but all seemed fine. Spade pins were all clean and none pressed in, same with their respective sockets. Gave liberal spraying of switch cleaner and pushed it in and out few times for good measure, though.

So, general running significantly better from disabling the EGR, but still got starting problem and some white smoke when idling and bit more when revving (car stationary when doing this test).

I have read of some people with this car suffering the starting issue but stating that when warm the engine drove perfectly, unlike how ours was. Now wondering if I've cured a separate issue that others suffering the starting problem have not had...

broyty · Post by **broyty** » 03 May 2009, 22:04

Hi James
I am glad that we have made some improvement to your car give me a ring tomorrow I am available all day and i will talk you through some other things to do

cheers
Mick

ianckt739 · Post by **ianckt739** » 03 May 2009, 23:53

James - Glad to hear you're making some progress after so long, best of luck with the starting.

I was reading your last post and the noise you describe when driving struck a chord with me. The rattle/knock you described, I have noticed a similar sound on mine but only ever when I have the accelerator pressed.

When I lift the accelerator either when slowing when approaching a junction or to change gear etc it seems to stop completely. Does this sound like the noise your engine makes? I don't have any other symptoms at all with mine, (touch wood) just your description of the sound seemed similar and I had noticed the noise but not really thought anything of it.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 04 May 2009, 00:14

Thanks Mick, I'm not starting work till 1.30pm tomorrow so will try and telephone you in the morning.

Thanks for the encouragement, I'm hoping against hope to get this car working as it should after so long, and enjoying tinkering again after not touching cars for ages. What you're describing is exactly what I get, a rattling only when accelerating and exact same conditions as you when it stops. I think it's been so long since it was running properly that I've forgotten just how it was before any faults developed, and assuming that a noise like that shouldn't be there. Rose-tinted memories... I do find it's rattling at constant revs and speeds though, only stopping when decelerating really. Imagine you get the same. I think my mind started to believe the car sounded like a purring petrol when it was fault-free.

Put two bottles of Forté Advanced Formula Diesel Treatment in the tank this evening and took it for a blast. Can't say noticed anything different, and no emissions at all noticeable from exhaust while driving. Had hoped for lots of sooty smoke, but maybe you don't get that with diesel treatments - never used this stuff before. Still, enjoyed having the power back, especially in the low end, and a smoother drive. Still a bit weak at low revs, but so much better it's enjoyable to drive again.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 04 May 2009, 00:29

You wont usually get smoke when using a diesel cleaner, it cleanes clowly and is usually best with low fuel and a bit of a blast. Let me know how you get on with the Forte stuff

I have kind of lost track with reading this thread now, however, have you cleaned the air intake system? Again forte supply this product, which does work well and its by doing this that you should get black smoke as it cleaner everything out.

I generally do this on every service. Gte someone to rev the car to about 2500rpm, take off an air intake pipe, or spray directly into the EGR. Spray a bit at a time and let the car settle and do it again. Try doing it a fair bit.

IMO this should be a part of every service, as its usually the thing which makes the most difference to how a car runs and performs.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 04 May 2009, 01:14

Ah, wondered if it might be slow cleaner. Put two bottles into just over quarter of tankful of fuel and gave it a blast on 50-mile roundtrip to nearest big town (we class it as 'big' if it has an Argos and Halfords... small place this

).

Haven't cleaned air intake. Inlet manifold looked caked in carbon when I looked through the EGR port, but didn't want to take it off that day to clean it. The carbon is rock solid (had to use a screwdriver to hack into it) and in chunks in places, like biggish crystals, would that product really do much against it? Not sure how I'd get it into engine, if it's before the turbo but after air filter, the airmass meter isn't connected and the spray would go through the turbo, would that be okay for the turbo? If after the turbo and through the EGR port in the inlet manifold, I'd imagine I'd have pressurised air blowing out the hole, and again a different airflow to the airmass meter's readings. Any tips appreciated.

Citroenmad · Post by **Citroenmad** » 04 May 2009, 08:52

It might not remove all of the bild up of soot etc, but it should help a lot. What i usually do, if a car has not been done before, is to give it a good spray, with the engine running doing 3Kish revs and then drive it for a few days. Then do it again and possibly again, judging by the amount of smoke that comes out.

It should be fine for the turbo, in fact it will do it some good, as i bet that is chocked up too. Thats if the cleaner gets to the turbo before it is burned off, however. I have used this in both C5 HDis and they are both fine and our 206 HDi which it vastly improved its performance, it was quite a slug when we bought it, but a good spraying with injector cleaner has really made it into a little hot hatch! They are all better for having the cleaner through them.

It works especially well on cars which have been chugged around town or driven slowly, as this is when the build up occurs.

Ive often used it to cure poor running, especially on petrol models. Our Xm was wanting to cut out at idle, a good dose of the spray has cured it.

If you are worried it might have bad effects on your car, you could ring the technical line at Forte, who should be happy to help with any advice about using that product on your car. Although i cant see why it would do any harm myself.

Best place to spray it is into the EGR, although if thats not easy to get to then in the pipework before the MAF should be fine, but might not be as sucessful. Id try it in th epipework first and see what happens, you should get quite a bit of smoke out of the exhaust, if you do and the car is still fine then spray it into the EGR. Its recommended to take the car out for a little blast once you have sprayed the cleaner.

If you havent already, give the MAF a clean, the intake cleaner might work for this, but i usually use electrical contact cleaner, in a spray, be careful not to touch the elements. Does it have a geniune Citroen MAF fitted?

Chris.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 04 May 2009, 12:02

Thanks for all that info. As far as I know, it has the original MAF fitted. When I next can, I'll get some of that cleaner spray, may as well do as much as I can while working on the car to clean it up in general.

ianckt739 · Post by **ianckt739** » 04 May 2009, 17:05

Well after reading your success with the EGR pipe I thought I'd take a look into mine just out of curiosity...

cleaned it out manually (an old teaspoon.... is there anything they can't help with!) which has made a big difference. The rattle when accelerating has gone almost completely and the engine is alot smoother when idle but as per your recommendation citroenmad I think I'll get some cleaner for the air intake/egr and give it a good clear out.

meexi · Post by **meexi** » 04 May 2009, 19:07

i have to say that my little puddle jumper is ok just now(touch wood) but it does hesitate at low revs sometimes where is the location of this EGR pipe?